# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 31
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/601 "2015-06-29T23:03:38Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Christian anti-Semitism - it still exists, right? The Inquisition is history (has it faded, you think?) but Christian anti-Semitism is quite strong and definitely has not gone away. You know, of the “Jews killed Christ” variety, and of other flavors. I have heard normal, regular Christians express these feelings occasionally over the last 30 years I spent in the US. Even some “friends” of mine (of the Baptist variety) who were not ostensibly anti-Semitic told me (with sorrow, I am sure) that their faith holds that I will go to hell because I am Jewish. Fairly recently, a Christian Identity follower - Buford Furrow - went on a shooting spree at a Jewish Community Center in Los Angeles. > > Do you think I (and other Jews) should consider the Christian cross to be the “monument to my oppression” and demand it be taken down? On government land, no less, like in military cemeteries. So your pro-flag argument is now “but they do it too” ? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/602 "2015-06-29T23:30:00Z")
> [@Bryan\_Ekers](#): > > So your pro-flag argument is now “but they do it too” ? No, my anti-anti-flag argument is “stop the stupidity”. ---
**Author:** ![Knorf](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/58956e/32.png) [@Knorf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Knorf)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/603 "2015-06-29T23:31:21Z")
Jeb! Bush calls the Confederate Battle Flag a [racist symbol](http://www.nytimes.com/politics/first-draft/2015/06/29/jeb-bush-calls-confederate-flag-a-racist-symbol/?hp&action=click&pgtype=Homepage&module=second-column-region®ion=top-news&WT.nav=top-news&_r=0). ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/604 "2015-06-29T23:38:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Christian anti-Semitism - it still exists, right? … > Do you think I (and other Jews) should consider the Christian cross to be the “monument to my oppression” and demand it be taken down? On government land, no less, like in military cemeteries. I think it has been argued quite well–and repeatedly–that this is not a fair comparison. Even the Nazis did not go to war solely to keep their right to oppress Jews. They went to war to take over Europe; killing Jews was a side project. In the same way, any Christian oppression of Jews has only ever been a side project, not their main reason to exist. There are no Christian churches founded on the principle of eliminating Jews from the world. The crucifix represents their belief that God died for their sins. Hell, I think a great many of them still don’t even realize that the character on the cross is a Jew… In the 1960s, a hundred years after the Civil War, black people were STILL being oppressed in an organized fashion by governments in the South. When the federal government stepped in to try to put a stop to it, the confederate flag was dug out of the closet and used _as a symbol of resistance to integration_, not as a sign of general defiance, but as a specific defiance to being ordered not to oppress black people. As has been stated by several here, it has since come to be seen _by some_ as a symbol of other things (and of general defiance), but the connection with racism is STILL THERE and quite recent (living memory for a lot of people). The flag _was put there specifically to make a racist statement_, and now they want to say, “Oh, is that silly thing still there? We didn’t really mean anything by it.” Oh, yeah, they sure as hell DID mean something by it. Something racist and ugly. So, when Jews are being mistreated, and the crucifix is being used as a symbol of Christian refusal to stop mistreating Jews, then you’ll have a valid comparison. Or when you can demonstrate that Jews in this country have been treated anywhere nearly as badly as black people have. The fact is, if you go to Germany, where the previous regime murdered 6 million Jews, you WON’T find ANY local governments proudly flying Nazi flags. And in the U.S., where the confederacy started a rebellion and 5-year war over the right to own black people, you SHOULD NOT see any local government proudly flying confederate flags. The arguments over private citizens flying the confederate flag are more complex, but governments flying it is outrageous. The German government is ashamed to be associated with the Nazis. The southern state governments OUGHT to be ashamed to be associated with the confederates. Maybe in an imaginary world where southern states were using the flag to symbolize the progress they’ve made and how they’ve overcome their racist past…but no, that’s not what they’ve done in THIS world. Unless telling the lie that the Civil War was really about “states’ rights”–or claiming that the northern states were the aggressors–counts as overcoming our racist past. -VM ---
**Author:** ![magellan01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@magellan01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/magellan01)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2015, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/605 "2015-06-29T23:54:30Z")
> [@Smartass](#): > > The fact is, if you go to Germany, where the previous regime murdered 6 million Jews, you WON’T find ANY local governments proudly flying Nazi flags. And in the U.S., where the confederacy started a rebellion and 5-year war over the right to own black people, you SHOULD NOT see any local government proudly flying confederate flags. There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. > [@Smartass](#): > > The arguments over private citizens flying the confederate flag are more complex, but governments flying it is outrageous. The German government is ashamed to be associated with the Nazis. The southern state governments OUGHT to be ashamed to be associated with the confederates. But it’s really not that easy, is it? The confederate flag has become a symbol for Southern pride. Look at all the innocent ways it has been used, from the Dukes of Hazard to the Muppets. This narrow recasting of the flag as this vile symbol—a stand-in for a pro-slavery mindset—is troubling. I’m fine with the citizens of a town or state deciding to fly it or not fly it. Personally, I wouldn’t fly it. But I’m not from the south and have the positive affection some have for it. Right now the whole thing has taken on a mob mentality. Grab your pitchforks and march because the flag must be killed! People really should chill out. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/606 "2015-06-30T01:06:20Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. Bullshit. Confederate apologist bullshit. > [@](#): > > Right now the whole thing has taken on a mob mentality. The mob mentality is that of the slave-holding and treasonous mob of the Civil War, the racist and murderous mob of the KKK, and the mob of retards like you who think that hate-filled rag was rehabilitated by a couple TV shows. It was not. It still means to thinking people exactly what it has always meant: the desire to continue to dehumanize and enslave human beings because of their color. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/607 "2015-06-30T01:52:20Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, my anti-anti-flag argument is “stop the stupidity”. Your assessment of the nature of your opposition is in error. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/608 "2015-06-30T01:57:27Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. Whats positive about the confederate flag? The muppets and dukes of hazard actually don’t have anything to do with the confederate flag. The stem from an era when people were more ignorant and less critical. That doesn’t change what the confederate flag itself entails. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 1:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/609 "2015-06-30T01:59:05Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > Right now the whole thing has taken on a mob mentality. Grab your pitchforks and march because the flag must be killed! People really should chill out. Historically, mobs associated with the Confederate flag almost never featured pitchforks. Just lots of rope, and a very terrified black person. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/610 "2015-06-30T02:07:34Z")
> [@Miller](#): > > Historically, mobs associated with the Confederate flag almost never featured pitchforks. Just lots of rope, and a very terrified black person. Hey Miller, I sent you a PM… ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 2:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/611 "2015-06-30T02:54:37Z")
You can’t share it with the rest of the class? ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/612 "2015-06-30T03:00:24Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You can’t share it with the rest of the class? It referenced an old post on a different topic from a different thread. ---
**Author:** ![C3](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/c3/32/3108_2.png) [@C3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C3)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 3:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/613 "2015-06-30T03:35:05Z")
Another group arguing that it’s [heritage, not hate](http://www.politico.com/story/2015/06/kkk-chapter-north-carolina-rally-south-carolina-statehouse-confederate-flag-119548.html), with a straight face. Well, I’m assuming it’s a straight face…can’t really tell with the hood in the way. (Up in my neck of the woods, they’re using this moment in history to do a little [direct marketing](http://www.wral.com/kkk-once-again-uses-fliers-to-recruit-in-central-nc/14745985/#hqKWKdKB0QgEwgx3.99).) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/614 "2015-06-30T11:53:59Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No, my anti-anti-flag argument is “stop the stupidity”. If most Jews believed that the cross was a symbol of anti-Semitism, then I would strongly consider the possibility that displaying the cross where Jews might see it is extremely rude, obnoxious, and un-neighborly. But they (and I) don’t, in general. Just as I trust most Jews (including myself and my family) when it comes to symbols of anti-Semitism, I trust most black people when it comes to symbols of racism. I trust that Jews, in general, necessarily know more about anti-Semitic imagery than non-Jews, and I trust that black people, in general, necessarily know more about anti-black racist imagery than non-black people. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 11:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/615 "2015-06-30T11:56:32Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. > > But it’s really not that easy, is it? The confederate flag has become a symbol for Southern pride. Look at all the innocent ways it has been used, from the Dukes of Hazard to the Muppets. This narrow recasting of the flag as this vile symbol—a stand-in for a pro-slavery mindset—is troubling. > > I’m fine with the citizens of a town or state deciding to fly it or not fly it. Personally, I wouldn’t fly it. But I’m not from the south and have the positive affection some have for it. Right now the whole thing has taken on a mob mentality. Grab your pitchforks and march because the flag must be killed! People really should chill out. I trust most black people when it comes to anti-black symbols. And when I look at the history of how the Confederate flag was returned to prominence, the opinion of most black people on the issue seems to be pretty clearly based on fact. It doesn’t matter that many or most who fly the flag today don’t regard it as a racist symbol – it’s still extremely obnoxious, in my view, to fly such a symbol when most people who were the target of its return to prominence feel that it is racist and offensive. Just like the way Jews might feel if someone flew the swastika out of some sense of Teutonic pride. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 12:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/616 "2015-06-30T12:15:27Z")
> [@dropzone](#): > > You can’t share it with the rest of the class? Imagine **Miller’s** joy. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2015, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/617 "2015-06-30T17:36:58Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. That’s only fair to say if you ignore the distinction I’m making between governments flying it and citizens flying it. > [@magellan01](#): > > But it’s really not that easy, is it? The confederate flag has become a symbol for Southern pride. Look at all the innocent ways it has been used… I’m specifically NOT talking about every way that any person has used it. I specifically AM talking about the motivations for state governments to fly it. The motivation was to make a racist statement IN RESPONSE TO federal enforcement of desegregation laws. The fact that they’ve gotten away with it for so long that SOME people have forgotten what they meant by it is not a good argument in favor. > [@magellan01](#): > > This narrow recasting of the flag as this vile symbol—a stand-in for a pro-slavery mindset—is troubling. In the case that I’m speaking of, the re-casting is on the other side. The flag was deliberately hoisted for the specific purpose of making a racist statement. The fact that some people may fly the flag for non-racist reasons is pretty much irrelevant to the fact that THESE GOVERNMENTS raised THESE FLAGS for no other reason than to announce their defiance of desegregation. In the case of southern states flying the flag on government property, there’s no need to consider all the possible reasons that a random person might decide to fly the flag, because we know WHEN the decision was made and we know why. There’s no hypothetical here. > [@magellan01](#): > > I’m fine with the citizens of a town or state deciding to fly it or not fly it. I’m not talking about what citizens do. I’m talking about what governments do or, more accurately, already did. For me, what private citizens do is a completely different subject. > [@magellan01](#): > > Right now the whole thing has taken on a mob mentality. Grab your pitchforks and march because the flag must be killed! People really should chill out. I don’t see how my statement that they ought to be ashamed equates to “grab your pitchforks”. If you are seeing a mob, it’s unfair to expect me to debate you on their behalf. -VM ---
**Author:** ![Boyo\_Jim](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/87869e/32.png) [@Boyo\_Jim](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Boyo_Jim)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/618 "2015-07-01T13:05:43Z")
What lesson am I supposed to learn here? My best guess is that, wherever a confederate flag flies, a white hood should be on the poll with it. ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 1:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/619 "2015-07-01T13:19:33Z")
> [@magellan01](#): > > There is nothing positive one can associate with the nazi flag. That is not true of the confederate flag, as I mentioned earlier in the thread. So the comparison doesn’t work. You didn’t actually point out anything positive, though. ---
**Author:** ![Smartass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@Smartass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smartass)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2015, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/620 "2015-07-01T22:04:58Z")
> [@Boyo\_Jim](#): > > What lesson am I supposed to learn here? My best guess is that, wherever a confederate flag flies, a white hood should be on the poll with it. Well, if you want to ignore most of the debate and just agree with the OP, then yes, that makes perfect sense. -VM [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=30) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=32)