# The white hood: heritage, not hate! **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 21, 2015, 2:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050 "2015-06-21T02:50:17Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/61 "2015-06-21T18:17:43Z")
> [@Freudian\_Slit](#): > > Wait, what? You must not own any rap or hip-hop. Or played sports. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/62 "2015-06-21T18:19:22Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > This is as silly an argument as your lame pedantic attempt to score points by belaboring the well-known differences between the confederate battle flag and other confederate flags. Well-known differences? Hell, I teach the Civil War every year and I always have to review the flags, especially the white ones. I think you may be giving other posters, certainly me, too much credit here. > [@](#): > > The difference between the CSA and the USA is that only one of these countries was explicitly founded for the purpose of preserving slavery. As such, symbols of the CSA are necessarily symbols of preserving slavery. No, it was not; it was founded on protecting ALL of the RIGHTS granted to its constituent states by the U.S. Constitution, as evidenced by it adopting the U.S. Constitution as its instrument of government. The CSA adopted NOTHING that had not been their absolute Constitutional rights as Americans (except for that unfortunate event at Ft. Sumter. Whoopsie.) > [@](#): > > This does not diminish the horrors of slavery in the USA–but symbols of the USA may be symbols of other facets of the country, whereas **the entire reason for the existence of the CSA was to brutally subjugate certain US citizens.** A purpose identical to that of the KKK. No, they absolutely WERE NOT US CITIZENS, as the Constitution very clearly defined and the SCOTUS so eloquently ruled. They were chattel property under American law, as they continued to be under Confederate law. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/63 "2015-06-21T18:31:01Z")
> [@Jophiel](#): > > I have trouble finding this in the US Constitution. Can you help? > > \*(4) No bill of attainder, ex post facto law, or law denying or impairing the right of property in negro slaves shall be passed. \* > > Or is the guaranteed constitutional right to own other people one of those “minor differences” between the US Constitution and that of the CSA? It was already a guaranteed constitutional right. They just weren’t called slaves. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/64 "2015-06-21T18:33:37Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, it was not; it was founded on protecting ALL of the RIGHTS granted to its constituent states by the U.S. Constitution, as evidenced by it adopting the U.S. Constitution as its instrument of government. The CSA adopted NOTHING that had not been their absolute Constitutional rights as Americans (except for that unfortunate event at Ft. Sumter. Whoopsie.) This bullshit attempt at an argument has been so thoroughly debunked by facts that it is surprising anyone bothers to repeat it. Any denial that the CSA was founded explicitly to protect slavery is just silly. The preservation of slavery is found in every single major speech by the advocates of secession and appears in most of the states’ declarations of independence. And since there was no legislation proposed to remove those rights from any state, your claim fails on an utter absence of evidence. When New England members met to discuss separation during the War of 1812, Southern states declared that secession was not to be allowed for any reason. Less than 40 years later, they acted on their own desires for separation in response to a non-existent threat. ---
**Author:** ![not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/not_what_you_d_expect/32/3246_2.png) [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/not_what_you_d_expect)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/65 "2015-06-21T18:42:15Z")
I’m just curious, are there any people of color who use the rebel flag as a symbol of their southern pride? Somehow, I doubt it, but it’s been 45 years since I left Florida. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/66 "2015-06-21T18:43:15Z")
While I agree with the OP’s conclusion, there is one small flaw in his argument, a relevant point of difference between the Klansman’s hood and the Confederate Battle Flag. The proximate reason for the existence of the flag (like for any flag) was to identify a group of people (albeit, in this case, a reprehensible group of people). The proximate reason for the hood is to conceal one’s identity while one is doing things one wants hidden. And Southerners do have a lot to be proud of, but the Confederate flag is not a symbol of the South in general. If you want a real symbol of the South, try a bowl of grits. The Confederate flag is a symbol of one specific aspect of the South, treason for purpose of perpetuating slavery, which nobody should be proud of. > [@](#): > > Quoth **tomndebb** : > > When New England members met to discuss separation during the War of 1812, Southern states declared that secession was not to be allowed for any reason. A principle which they even still clung to after their own secession: The CSA itself did not recognize any right to secession. ---
**Author:** ![Grotonian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/c2a13f/32.png) [@Grotonian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Grotonian)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/67 "2015-06-21T18:49:45Z")
> [@Verily](#): > > Boom! That’s one straw man successfully slain! > > We’re not saying slavery was worse in the Confederacy. We’re saying the Confederacy was worse because slavery was its foundational principle. The USA had slavery because of history and compromise. No, the USA had slavery because it believed in it and liked it, which is why it was legal in a ALL STATES on July 4, 1776. > [@](#): > > The CSA had it as its _sine qua non_. That’s why people regard Confederate symbols as inherently racist and not Union symbols. No, it’s because Americans like to pretend slavery was a Southern thing and not an American thing. It was an American thing. > [@](#): > > In the USA, racism has always been in conflict with the ideals, and we’ve had a long, hard, ugly struggle about it from the beginning. No we didn’t. Slavery was legal in all states “from the beginning.” We knew exactly how we felt. It wasn’t a struggle, for whites anyway. > [@](#): > > In the CSA, racism _was_ the ideal. If you genuinely can’t understand why that’s worse, then there’s nothing else I can say that will help. And if you can’t understand why the USA is just as guilty, nothing I say will help. ---
**Author:** ![octopus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/octopus/32/3716_2.png) [@octopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/octopus)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/68 "2015-06-21T18:50:19Z")
> [@not\_what\_you\_d\_expect](#): > > I’m just curious, are there any people of color who use the rebel flag as a symbol of their southern pride? > > Somehow, I doubt it, but it’s been 45 years since I left Florida. [http://lmgtfy.com/?q=black+people+confederate+flag](http://lmgtfy.com/?q=black+people+confederate+flag) Just off the top of my head Kanye West. It’s his flag now. And growing up in the South I’ve seen it on shirts blacks have worn. There are some black rednecks. ---
**Author:** ![Jophiel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jophiel/32/66_2.png) [@Jophiel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jophiel)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/69 "2015-06-21T18:51:34Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > It was already a guaranteed constitutional right. They just weren’t called slaves. Since there were states prohibiting slavery, that’s not much of an argument. For example, the 1802 Ohio state constitution stated that: _But no alteration of this constitution shall ever take place, so as to introduce slavery or involuntary servitude into this State. […] There shall be neither slavery nor involuntary servitude in this State[…]_ …which wouldn’t have happened if the US Constitution guaranteed the right. No, the guarantee of slavery was a creation of the CSA. ---
**Author:** ![billfish678](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7bcc69/32.png) [@billfish678](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/billfish678)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/70 "2015-06-21T18:52:16Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > And Southerners do have a lot to be proud of, but the Confederate flag is not a symbol of the South in general. If you want a real symbol of the South, try a bowl of grits. . See, that is part of the problem. Some folks use the Confederate Flag pretty much because it IS the default flag for “the South”. Can you (the all you you) think of some OTHER flag to represent the good parts of the South? If there was a Grit flag that went viral then the problem would be solved. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/71 "2015-06-21T18:54:12Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > You’re very clever, and we all applaud that about you. Clap! Clap! > > Now that we’ve acknowledged you, perhaps someone else cares to address the OP. Ah, sorry about that. I didn’t think there was much to debate here wrt a klansmans hood being an obvious symbol of racism and not cultural heritage. I think there is a wee bit more room concerning the Confederate battle flag, but even there I agree that it’s a symbol of some pretty evil shit, perhaps not (quite) on par with the Nazi flag but not exactly apple pie and baseball either. I used to think basically different strokes and such, but honestly I don’t see why the battle flag of a group of states that tried to leave the union through force of arms with one of the primary reasons for doing so being the continued enslavement of black people as well as that whole entrenched aristocracy should be tolerated simply for supposed cultural reasons. Again, sorry about the flip answer but I guess there ARE folks willing to debate this…I assumed initially it would simply be a thread of ‘me too!’ and ‘what s/he said!’ type responses to your OP. ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 6:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/72 "2015-06-21T18:58:47Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > The major difference being that the South’s constitution specifically referred to “slaves” rather than using the North’s euphemism. > [@camille](#): > > The whole country’s history is tainted by slavery; are the northern states so innocent of benefiting from slavery that they can rightfully demonize the south as the sole perpetrators? Let’s make some distinctions here: There’s “the South” (1607- ), “the North” (1620- ), “America” (1607- ), “the United States of America” (1776- ), and “the Confederate States of America” (1861-1865). It’s absolutely not questionable that both the South and the North–and also “the West”–and America as a whole has a history that’s deeply and painfully tainted with racism, including slavery and later Jim Crow, exploitation and oppression of Chinese out in California, and–very fundamentally, for the entire country of “America” as a whole–the massive expropriation of land from the Indians, accomplished with at-times genocidal violence. And since the U.S.A. did not magically end all these injustices after the Revolution–far from it!–this painful history doesn’t just belong to “America” (the ethnocultural entity that arose as a collection of English or British colonies), it also taints the history of “the United States of America”, the country founded in the Revolution that continues to this day. The history of the South stretches for over 400 years, and it sure as hell includes a _lot_ of racism, including outright slavery. But of course the history of the North–nearly as long as that of the South–_also_ includes a lot of slavery, and [other forms of racism](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:Soiling_of_Old_Glory.jpg). Anyone who says “Oh, slavery? Well, that’s just a _Southern_ thing and I’m from [New York](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/New_York_Conspiracy_of_1741), so that has nothing to do with me” is at best very, very ignorant of history. But–the flags we’re talking about aren’t symbols of “the South”, they are the flags of _the Confederate States of America_, a relatively brief but terribly significant period in the lengthy history of the South and of America when the major portion of the Southern states chose to secede and wage a huge and bloody war in order to try to form a new nation dedicated to the proposition that all white men are created equal and that all black men should properly be slaves. The United States of America–warts and all–is damned well a better country than the Confederate States of America was or would have been (and of course the Confederacy never got a chance to become either a better or–somehow–worse country than it was in 1861-1865). When I talk about a country founded on slavery and for the perpetuation of slavery, I’m not talking about “the South”, I’m talking about _the Confederate States of America_. And as long as too many Southerners insist that the symbols of that one horrible period are emblematic of the whole of Southern identity and history, from Jamestown until right now, they must bear a substantial amount of the blame if people wind up saying “Southerners? Oh, you mean those pro-slavery racist people?” ---
**Author:** ![MEBuckner](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mebuckner/32/2896_2.png) [@MEBuckner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MEBuckner)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/73 "2015-06-21T19:08:44Z")
> [@billfish678](#): > > Can you (the all you you) think of some OTHER flag to represent the good parts of the South? Well, there isn’t any such flag, of course. That’s not too surprising–“the Midwest” doesn’t have a flag, neither does “the West”, or “the Northeast”. I guess “New England” could use [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_England_pine_flag.svg), though I don’t know how recognizable it would be even in New England. Hell, most _states_–which are formally defined entities–don’t have very strong symbols of identity. Sure, South Carolina has a very nice and distinctive flag; along with Alaska and Arizona or New Mexico and a few others. California has its “Bear Flag Republic” flag. (And Texas, of course, although it’s pretty obviously based on the U.S. flag.) But [most U.S. state flags](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Flags_of_the_U.S._states) are what the vexillological community refers to as “a logo on a bedsheet”–unless you’re close enough to read where it says “Seal of the State of \_\_\_\_\_” on the flag, you’re likely out of luck trying to quickly and easily distinguish which is which. (A lot of them do helpfully put the name of the state in large letters on the flag to aid with this–which is a sure sign of a pretty uninspired flag design.) ---
**Author:** ![Bridget\_Burke](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/7cd45c/32.png) [@Bridget\_Burke](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bridget_Burke)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/74 "2015-06-21T19:11:37Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > And thank God Washington wasn’t a racist, or a white supremacist, or a slave owner. What kind of country would a man like that have founded? George Washington was born into a world where slavery was legal. He led a successful Revolution, was active in the adoption of the Constitution and was our first President. He changed that world & he changed himself. Alas, Washington only freed his slaves in his will–death came suddenly but he was able to remember to burn the earlier version in his last agonizing day of life. Among the Southern slaveholders who followed him into office, _none_ freed their slaves. (Well, TJ freed a few favorites; he failed to pursue his children who fled & they could easily pass.) Washington also intended that his freed slaves become Virginians; it’s thought the actions of the many African-Americans serving under him in the War influenced his thinking. In Jefferson’s _Notes on the State of Virginia_, he points out how their racial inferiority means that ex slaves must be deported. As much as he kept saying he hated slavery, his alternative was just too hard & too expensive. (Imported wine & books cost money; architecture is not a poor man’s hobby.) Most of the Southern Founders at least claimed to oppose slavery, even if they did damn little. By the middle of the next century, Southerners in power saw it as a positive good. So they tried to break the country & failed. So, what do I think of the Klan hood & the Battle Flag? The same thign I’ve though most of my life. Even Clarence Thomas agrees with me in the Battle Flag. Alas, the Klan is[not a purely Southern institution](http://www.splcenter.org/hate-map). (_Where_ do you teach history?) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/75 "2015-06-21T19:11:39Z")
> [@MEBuckner](#): > > Well, there isn’t any such flag, of course. That’s not too surprising–“the Midwest” doesn’t have a flag, neither does “the West”, or “the Northeast”. I guess “New England” could use [this one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/File:New_England_pine_flag.svg), though I don’t know how recognizable it would be even in New England. Native New Englander here. Never seen it. If someone asked me what it was, I’d guess it had something to do with Lebanon. (Not Lebanon, CT, NH or ME 🙂 ) ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 7:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/76 "2015-06-21T19:12:23Z")
> [@XT](#): > > Again, sorry about the flip answer but I guess there ARE folks willing to debate this…I assumed initially it would simply be a thread of ‘me too!’ and ‘what s/he said!’ type responses to your OP. Apology appreciated; next time, perhaps you can wait to see if your assumption is correct before making the first response to the OP be the way it was here. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/77 "2015-06-21T20:01:26Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > If someone marches around wearing [this symbol](https://en.wikipedia.org/?title=Spanish_Inquisition#/media/File:Seal_for_the_Tribunal_of_the_Holy_Office_of_the_Inquisition_(Spain).png)–the seal of the office of the Inquisition–then yeah, a similar objection applies. I see a T-shirt in my future! ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/78 "2015-06-21T20:15:19Z")
The Confederate flag is not equivalent to a Klan hood in terms of promoting an agenda of vicious racism. However, it’s bad enough. The flag should not be publicly displayed, especially on government property or state license plates. Cheers to the GOP candidates who’ve come out against display of the Confederate flag, as opposed to slugs like Ted Cruz and his “state’s rights” message. > [@Chronos](#): > > And Southerners do have a lot to be proud of, but the Confederate flag is not a symbol of the South in general. If you want a real symbol of the South, try a bowl of grits. Barbecue, baby…with sides of cornbread and collard greens. It should however be illegal to display a flag showing “sweet tea” (urk). ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/79 "2015-06-21T20:19:42Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > The Confederate flag is not equivalent to a Klan hood in terms of promoting an agenda of vicious racism. > > However, it’s bad enough. The flag should not be publicly displayed, especially on government property or state license plates. > > Cheers to the GOP candidates who’ve come out against display of the Confederate flag, as opposed to slugs like Ted Cruz and his “state’s rights” message.Barbecue, baby…with sides of cornbread and collard greens. > > It should however be illegal to display a flag showing “sweet tea” (urk). Just to be clear, are you saying a state should not be allowed to display the flag, or that in your opinion, they shouldn’t? ETA: I responded to you before you added that last sentence, and I have no idea what is meant by “sweet tea” in that context. ---
**Author:** ![Verily](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/v/e9a140/32.png) [@Verily](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Verily)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2015, 8:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050/80 "2015-06-21T20:26:03Z")
> [@Grotonian](#): > > No, the USA had slavery because it believed in it and liked it, which is why it was legal in a ALL STATES on July 4, 1776. > > No, it’s because Americans like to pretend slavery was a Southern thing and not an American thing. It was an American thing. > > No we didn’t. Slavery was legal in all states “from the beginning.” We knew exactly how we felt. It wasn’t a struggle, for whites anyway. > > And if you can’t understand why the USA is just as guilty, nothing I say will help. Okay, I think I begin to grasp your position. You’re ignoring every anti-slavery argument made in the early days, every hint that slavery was maintained (with indifference by some and anguish by others) as a compromise to keep the Southern states from withdrawing and making the Union stillborn, and every breath expelled and drop of ink used by white abolitionists railing against the evils of that compromise and demanding that the injustice of the maintaining of slavery in a country whose foundational principles were equality and justice and liberty be corrected. Instead you pretend that white Americans, as a people, just love them some slavery, and therefore it’s an irredeemably damning fact that the United States didn’t abolish slavery before it had even managed to become a country. (Hint: July 4, 1776 is not a magical date on which American identity was forged forever; there was still an actual revolution to fight, and the Constitution was written more than a decade later, with a hell of a lot of debate on what should go into it and what should go out.) Furthermore, you think that that failure to preemptively abolish slavery nationwide means that the USA is _exactly as bad_ as the Confederate States, which withdrew from the Union for the explicit purpose of protecting slavery from the abolitionists (who, I guess, must not have been white in your world, because, as established, white Americans always loved slavery) and who spelled it out in their own Constitution that no law could be passed in the good ol’ CS of A that denied or impaired the right to keep black people as property. You’re free to believe, of course, that any country that ever had slaves at all is exactly the moral equivalent of a country that was founded specifically to preserve slavery and would not have come into existence in the first place if they hadn’t believed slavery to be in danger. Suffice it to say, I’m not inclined to agree with that. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-hood-heritage-not-hate/723050.md?page=5)