# The White Sox - A Brutal Truth **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [April 16, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363 "2024-04-16T12:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 17
**Author:** ![Procrustus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/procrustus/32/2994_2.png) [@Procrustus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Procrustus)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/321 "2024-08-06T15:44:24Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > One more sad note from Monday night’s game against the A’s: attendance was a whopping 4,971 people . The A’s, at least, are used to that. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 4:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/322 "2024-08-06T16:48:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > One more sad note from Monday night’s game against the A’s: attendance was a whopping 4,971 people. Wow! Our high school used to fill Wahconah Park with fans, and the seating capacity there was 4500. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/323 "2024-08-06T16:54:34Z")
To be fair, I can just remember a few Yankee games in April of 1972 with number like that. Apparently, playing the Whitesox on September 22, 1966 they had only 413 fans. Amazing they couldn’t get more than that there just to see Mickey Mantle on the wrong side of his career. Maybe he was injured. [The box score shows he didn’t play](https://www.baseball-reference.com/boxes/NYA/NYA196609220.shtml). ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/324 "2024-08-06T17:11:36Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > and largely retreated from baseball, and public life, after he retired, which may contribute to today’s fans not knowing as much about him. It didn’t help that when he did come out of hiding it was to show everyone he was a horrible bigot. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 6:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/325 "2024-08-06T18:33:01Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Steve Carlton was a greater pitcher than Nolan Ryan One of the all-time worst trades in MLB history. In 1972, the Cardinals traded Carlton for Rick Wise of the Phillies. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 6:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/326 "2024-08-06T18:55:16Z")
> [@Railer13](#): > > One of the all-time worst trades in MLB history. In 1972, the Cardinals traded Carlton for Rick Wise of the Phillies. It was personal; Carlton had argued with the Cardinals about money. It didn’t seem like a terrible trade at the time; Wise was a year younger and he was to all appearances a hell of a pitcher. He gave the Cards a couple of good years, too. Thsi is off topic so I’ll stop with this post, but Carlton is an interesting comparison to Nolan Ryan, as I mentioned before, because it’s now very common to hear casual fans talk about how Nolan Ryan is the greatest pitcher of all time. Well, I was there, at least on the tail end of it, and NOBODY at that time - nobody - thought Nolan Ryan was the equal of Steve Carlton. If you had asked 100 baseball fans in 1983 who the greater pitcher was, the only way you would not get 100 "Steve Carlton"s was if you happened across members of his family or some Astros fans. Ryan was one of the more remarkable pitchers alive, but there was a reason they gave Carlton four Cy Young Awards and Ryan none. They thought Carlton was better. It’s illustrative of how important it is to not look look at stats but consider the contemporaneous view and how that might affect how you see the stats. Since Carlton retired, 1. Ryan went on an admittedly amazing run in his 40s. Not that he was the greatest pitcher or that it makes up the gap, really, but it was awfully impressive that a guy his age could throw a no hitter with 16 strikeouts against the team that would end up winning the World Series. Until 1984 or 1985 or something like that, the all time strikeout leader was Steve Carlton, and it was no guarantee Carlton wasn’t going to end up being the guy. Ryan blew him (and everyone else) away because of his remarkable run of strikeouts after age 40. 2. Ryan became a respected elder statesman in baseball, while Carlton became a paranoid schizophrenic hermit who talked about hating Jews, things not conducive to a strong reputation, and 3. In time, the glitz and glamour of Ryan’s records - 5714 strikeouts!!! 7 no hitters!!!1! - are easier to remember than just the fact one guy was better at helping his team win. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/327 "2024-08-06T19:19:13Z")
Well said, @RickJay. As a Cardinal fan, I hated that trade at the time, and I hate it now. But it wasn’t that bad on paper, as you pointed out. Back on topic, tonight’s game features the Sox pitcher, Jonathan Cannon (1-5, 4.11 ERA) against the A’s pitcher, Ross Stripling (2-10, 5.64 ERA). This might be the game that breaks the streak. Also a good game to bet the over, which is 8.5. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/328 "2024-08-06T19:32:12Z")
Former White Sox star Frank Thomas appeared on the team’s postgame TV show last night, and clearly has had enough of the losing streak. > [@](#): > > White Sox legend and Hall of Famer Frank Thomas says he would throw a postgame tantrum with reporters if he was managing the team right now. > [@](#): > > “It’s time to snap,” Thomas said on the team’s postgame show on NBC Sports Chicago following a 5-1 loss to Oakland. “That’s the only way through the players right now. Snap. I’m serious. I don’t want to hear no more: ‘We’re trying.’ No more: ‘They’re working hard every day. > > “No, it’s time to snap. It’s time to kick over the (food) spread.” > > Thomas played for the White Sox from 1990 to 2005 as part of a 19-season career. Now 56, the two-time AL MVP hit 521 home runs, including 448 for Chicago. He was elected to the Hall of Fame on the first ballot in 2014. > > “I’m not being nice. Kick the door. Slam the door! ‘Get out of here! I’m tired of answering questions,‘” Thomas suggested would be his reaction as manager. “‘We’ve lost 21 in (a row) — we’re the laughingstock of baseball. You think I don’t know that?’” [https://wgntv.com/sports/white-sox/white-sox-legend-frank-thomas-says-its-time-to-snap-if-he-was-managing-team-on-historic-losing-streak/](https://wgntv.com/sports/white-sox/white-sox-legend-frank-thomas-says-its-time-to-snap-if-he-was-managing-team-on-historic-losing-streak/) ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/329 "2024-08-06T19:38:35Z")
That’s probably all that testosterone he’s taking doing the talking. There’s only so much you can expect when you’ve traded away nearly every player with any value and don’t even have replacement level players left. ---
**Author:** ![smithsb](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/smithsb/32/12107_2.png) [@smithsb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/smithsb)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/330 "2024-08-06T19:41:43Z")
Frank, Frank, FRANK! Here, take a bite of this Snickers bar. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/331 "2024-08-06T19:46:33Z")
> [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > That’s probably all that testosterone he’s taking doing the talking. For those unaware, Thomas has been the pitchman for an over-the-counter testosterone supplement for several years, the ads for which appear regularly on late-night and cable TV. My primary takeaway from the ads is that they imply if you take these supplements, you’ll have more energy, and hot women half your age will want to date you. 😉 > [@Great\_Antibob](#): > > There’s only so much you can expect when you’ve traded away nearly every player with any value and don’t even have replacement level players left. This, for sure. I have no idea if Grifol would be a good manager with a good team; he’s certainly had blessed little to work with in Chicago. ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/332 "2024-08-06T19:55:14Z")
Yeah, I don’t know if Grifol or Getz are any good or not. Possibly not but Rick Hahn and Tony LaRussa did not do them any favors. And ultimately Reinsdorf deserves a large part of the blame. But it’s not like he’s going to fire himself. ---
**Author:** ![BlankSlate](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blankslate/32/80_2.png) [@BlankSlate](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BlankSlate)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/333 "2024-08-06T19:58:12Z")
> [@Jasmine](#): > > I’m not familiar with him but, how great do you have to be to win 27 games for a team that ended up 23 games below 500?! 30 complete games and 346 innings pitched. Sometimes you just gotta do it yourself. Ironically, the '72 Phillies averaged 3.22 runs per game that season, but that number jumped to 3.83 in games started by Carlton. Maybe they just needed to believe. ---
**Author:** ![Stratocaster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stratocaster/32/16393_2.png) [@Stratocaster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stratocaster)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/334 "2024-08-06T21:46:59Z")
> [@BlankSlate](#): > > Ironically, the '72 Phillies averaged 3.22 runs per game that season, but that number jumped to 3.83 in games started by Carlton. Maybe they just needed to believe. Carlton’s teammates used to call his spot in the rotation “Win Day.” Confidence can do a lot, including confidence a game will stay within reach. Everybody plays a little looser. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 6, 2024, 9:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/335 "2024-08-06T21:54:03Z")
> [@Stratocaster](#): > > Carlton’s teammates used to call his spot in the rotation “Win Day.” Confidence can do a lot, including confidence a game will stay within reach. Everybody plays a little looser. Not sure when “Win Day” is for the 2024 Chicago White Sox, but it might not be anything that starts with “August.” I’d agree tonight may be a great shot for them though. Ross Stripling doesn’t seem to have anything left in him. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 4:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/336 "2024-08-07T04:48:16Z")
Break up the Sox! They beat the A’s, 5-1, to end the losing streak. > **[White Sox end AL record-tying losing streak at 21](https://www.espn.com/mlb/story/_/id/40756778/chicago-white-sox-snap-al-record-tying-losing-streak-21)** > > Andrew Benintendi hit a two-run homer and the Chicago White Sox snapped an American League record-tying losing streak at 21 games on Tuesday night, defeating the Oakland Athletics 5-1 on a night in which they held a lead for the first time in six... ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 5:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/337 "2024-08-07T17:17:08Z")
Best team in baseball? ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/338 "2024-08-07T21:57:04Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Best team in baseball? . Only for about 18 hours; they lost to the A’s again this afternoon, 3-2. Current losing streak is at 1. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [August 7, 2024, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/339 "2024-08-07T22:39:03Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > Only for about 18 hours; they lost to the A’s again this afternoon, 3-2. Almost 7,000 at the game this afternoon! Largest crowd of the 3-game series. ---
**Author:** ![Kent\_Clark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kent_clark/32/105_2.png) [@Kent\_Clark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kent_Clark)\ **Post date:** [August 8, 2024, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/340 "2024-08-08T01:51:11Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > if some billionaire materializes who loves Chicago (and maybe loves the Sox, too), and is willing to foot the bill for a new stadium Not to derail the thread about all the other problems with the franchise but what’s wrong with the ballpark other than it changes names every five years. I just drove past it last week, and from my admittedly brief glance from the Dan Ryan it looked perfectly adequate. Is it the Southside location? Is there no no other entertainment in the area, unlike Wrigleyville? In other words, is there anything really wrong with the stadium that the reincarnation of the 2005 Sox wouldn’t cure? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363.md?page=16) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363.md?page=18)