# The White Sox - A Brutal Truth **URL:** \ **Category:** The Game Room\ **Tags:** baseball-mlb\ **Created:** [April 16, 2024, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363 "2024-04-16T12:30:07Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 25
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 11:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/481 "2024-09-04T11:29:20Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > He lasted 1 2/3 innings; in that span, he gave up 7 runs (only four earned) on four hits, six walks, and a wild pitch. Three runs scored on a throwing error, with the based loaded, by third baseman Miguel Vargas, who appears to have been pulled after that play. 😳 “Can’t anyone here play this game?!” - Casey Stengel ---
**Author:** ![DCnDC](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dcndc/32/2842_2.png) [@DCnDC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DCnDC)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 12:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/482 "2024-09-04T12:32:08Z")
This play nicely sums up the White Sox’s season: [https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2024/2024-09/03/fa030fca-14a5bb30-9f9ae8e0-csvm-diamondgcp-asset\_1280x720\_59\_4000K.mp4](https://mlb-cuts-diamond.mlb.com/FORGE/2024/2024-09/03/fa030fca-14a5bb30-9f9ae8e0-csvm-diamondgcp-asset_1280x720_59_4000K.mp4) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/483 "2024-09-04T12:43:36Z")
Railer13 posted that play a few posts ago. Here’s the thing though - the White Sox have actually been pretty good this season defensively. Bumbling a pop-up is pretty uncharacteristic. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 12:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/484 "2024-09-04T12:48:09Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Railer13 posted that play a few posts ago. Tweets are often not seen or viewed by other posters. I for one am glad @DCnDC posted just the video link. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 1:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/485 "2024-09-04T13:01:32Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Here’s the thing though - the White Sox have actually been pretty good this season defensively. The White Sox have the fifth-worst fielding percentage according to this (and sixth-most in errors committed): > **[2024 MLB Team Fielding Stat Leaders - ESPN](https://www.espn.com/mlb/stats/team/_/view/fielding/seasontype/2/table/fielding/sort/fieldingPct/dir/asc)** > > ESPN is the place for MLB stats! Find a list of the Fielding team stat leaders for the 2024 MLB Regular Season. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 1:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/486 "2024-09-04T13:22:19Z")
That’s not really the best way to measure defense though… you should really look at something like Defensive Runs Saved. That can be found [here](https://archive.fieldingbible.com/TeamDefensiveRunsSaved), and the Sox are… dead last, with more than twice as many runs given away by crappy defense than the next worst team (the A’s). So yes, the White Sox are also historically bad on defense to go along with their abysmal pitching and hopeless hitting. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/487 "2024-09-04T13:32:49Z")
I wasn’t aware of all y’all’s new-fangled stats, but that’s a pretty amazing number. I knew they weren’t good defensively, so the original comment caught me a little off-guard, but to see they’re absolutely the worst by a longshot in this category confirms how bad they really are. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 1:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/488 "2024-09-04T13:39:09Z")
In Statcast’s Outs Above Average they are only second worst. The A’s are lower. But in Fielding Runs Value they are last, 10 runs worse than the A’s. UZR likes them a bit better (only 3rd worst). You can find various other defensive stats here: [Major League Leaderboards - 2024 - Fielding | FanGraphs Baseball](https://www.fangraphs.com/leaders/major-league?pos=all&stats=fld&lg=all&qual=0&type=1&season=2024&season1=2024&ind=0&team=0%2Cts&rost=&age=&filter=&players=0&startdate=&enddate=&month=0&sortcol=11&sortdir=default&pagenum=1) ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/489 "2024-09-04T13:58:58Z")
Well, damn - I was basing my comment off something I read last night. Going back, it seems to be a bit tongue-in-cheek “hey, they’re not dead last in fielding!” ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 2:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/490 "2024-09-04T14:35:03Z")
> [@pulykamell](#): > > The White Sox have the fifth-worst fielding percentage according to this (and sixth-most in errors committed): Well, compared to everything else, that qualifies as “pretty good” LOL ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/491 "2024-09-04T15:34:11Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > But, it raises an interesting question (though one we probably won’t learn the answer to until after the season): how many guys currently on the Sox’s major-league roster (or even the 40-man roster) will be kept in the off-season? How many guys do they think under-performed this year, and are actually better than replacement value, and thus worth hanging onto? And, for that matter, do they even have anyone in the minors who will be substantially better? They’ll have to keep the majority of players, I suspect, if for no other reason than the fact you can’t just hork off everyone all that easily, and their value as trade bait will be near-zero after this fiasco. On top of that… I mean, they MUST be underperforming. 36-126 is below replacement level. Not one person on earth predicted this. Projection s for the Sox were not good but most analysts had them around 65 wins, bad, but normally bad. There really is no way they can truly be this awful in 2025. > [@pulykamell](#): > > I wasn’t aware of all y’all’s new-fangled stats, but that’s a pretty amazing number. I knew they weren’t good defensively, so the original comment caught me a little off-guard, but to see they’re absolutely the worst by a longshot in this category confirms how bad they really are. I think it was Bill James who observed that to his subjective impression, defense is the biggest difference between good teams and bad teams. I think he may be right. The problem with the traditional defensive statistics is that they tell you some things about individuals, but less so about teams, because 1. Every team had to make basically the same number of outs no matter what, so they’re all gonna have around the same number of chances and assists and putouts and whatnot, 2. The difference between teams in terms of the number of errors they make in modern baseball is not that much. Right now the most fumble-handed team, the Red Sox, have made 101 errors, which is 27 more than average. 27 errors more than average is bad but in the course of playing 130-ish games, I mean, it’s not really THAT much; it’s the equal of, I dunno, hitting six or seven home runs, right? You wouldn’t really think that a big difference. The most sure-handed team is the DBacks, who have made 24 errors fewer than average - again, good for them, but not THAT huge a deal. 3. A lot of things like how many double plays you’ve turned are hardly connected to defensive skill at all. Double plays are more connected to how inept your pitchers are, since more baserunners = more double plays. The Rockies are an awful team… and lead the majors in turning two. The Twins, a pretty good team, are dead last; they have turned only 62, which is shockingly few. But the Rockies give up more baserunners than anyone - even more than the White Sox - while the Twins are very stingy when it comes to letting guys make it to first base. Advanced defensive metrics aren’t perfect by any means, but one does need to make an effort to cut through the inherent illusions in the basic numbers. Or… just watch the White Sox, they LOOK fucking horrible out there. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 3:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/492 "2024-09-04T15:53:17Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > Often, a team that’s out of contention seemingly gets fired up at the chance to damage a contending team’s chances. > > At this point it’s starting to look like the White Sox are just phoning it in. I hope so. Because the Guardians, who have been one of the top teams in all of baseball this year, have managed to lose 5/10 games against these jokers and I am legit nervous about our 3 upcoming games. I’m not so much worried about our record, just the _implications_ of losing more to this team that has truly scraped the bottom of the barrel! And with our own guy at the helm! ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 4, 2024, 4:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/493 "2024-09-04T16:53:20Z")
> [@ZipperJJ](#): > > I hope so. Because the Guardians, who have been one of the top teams in all of baseball this year, have managed to lose 5/10 games against these jokers and I am legit nervous about our 3 upcoming games. I’m afraid you should be nervous. At one point, the high flying Guardians were briefly tied for the best record in baseball. They had nearly a double digit lead over KC and MN. August was not kind to them. They really cooled off, and their relatively poor showing against the Sox is contrasted by the great success both KC and MN have had against us. You have to win all 3 games, you really do. ---
**Author:** ![Railer13](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/railer13/32/9742_2.png) [@Railer13](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Railer13)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/494 "2024-09-05T01:40:16Z")
Well, the Sox just broke their latest losing streak by pounding the Orioles 8-1. Baltimore had the best winning percentage in the AL before the loss tonight. Sox are back on pace to win 37. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 3:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/495 "2024-09-05T03:44:15Z")
They could still make the playoffs if they can win at least 140 of their remaining 21 games. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 6:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/496 "2024-09-05T06:02:50Z")
Tonight was Opposite NIght. The White Sox pounded the Orioles 8-1 and the Angels pounded the Dodgers 10-1. All opposite outcomes of what one would have expected and predicted 7 hours ago. ---
**Author:** ![Munch](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/munch/32/5281_2.png) [@Munch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Munch)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 10:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/497 "2024-09-05T10:15:03Z")
Can’t have four 10-game losing streaks if you lose them all. ---
**Author:** ![Jasmine](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jasmine/32/2964_2.png) [@Jasmine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jasmine)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 11:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/498 "2024-09-05T11:23:19Z")
Well, aren’t you a ray of sunshine! 🤣 ---
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [September 5, 2024, 12:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/499 "2024-09-05T12:41:46Z")
> [@Munch](#): > > Can’t have four 10-game losing streaks if you lose them all. Well, you know what they say - you can’t lose 'em all ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2024, 4:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363/500 "2024-09-06T04:31:09Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > Tonight was Opposite NIght. The White Sox pounded the Orioles 8-1 and the Angels pounded the Dodgers 10-1. All opposite outcomes of what one would have expected and predicted 7 hours ago. yeah angels got lucky but their best thing this season is “they aint the white sox” [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363.md?page=24) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-white-sox-a-brutal-truth/1000363.md?page=26)