# The Who vs. Led Zeppelin **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [December 14, 2007, 12:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984 "2007-12-14T12:01:01Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Rysdad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/7cd45c/32.png) [@Rysdad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rysdad)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/41 "2007-12-14T19:35:52Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] I will say this: the two bands’ approaches couldn’t be more different in intent, even while they both ended up with huge, defining hard rock sounds. Zep was all about taking the listener _ **outside** _- into a fantastic realm bigger than they were - like LOTR or a comic book. The Who was all about taking the listener _ **inside** _ - looking at themselves and their internal struggles and pain and giving it voice - like, say, Catcher in the Rye. [/QUOTE] I believe this is the definitive description. Except backwards. Sorta 🙂 Zep made me sort of want to lay on the couch, pleasantly stoned, and wander around inside my head. The Who made me want to drink hard liquor, go outside, and cause disturbances. ---
**Author:** ![Scissorjack](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/c67d28/32.png) [@Scissorjack](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scissorjack)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/42 "2007-12-14T19:40:58Z")
[QUOTE=gazpacho] When I read things like this I think that I don’t have the correct who albums. I own Who’s Next, Quadrophenia and Tommy. What else should I get? [/QUOTE] The Who Sell Out. It’s just so fucking _clever_. Townsend’s really starting to prowl the cage of his mod/R&B roots, Daltrey’s being dragged along kicking and screaming, and the tension in the band, which you can _feel_, translates into a fantastic bunch of songs: it really foreshadows Tommy. Plus it single-handedly anticipates and destroys prog rock, with a ridiculously fun sloppy pomp rock take on “In The Hall Of The Mountain King”, with Moon on howls, grunts, moans and gibbers. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/43 "2007-12-14T19:42:55Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] I agree with this - if you add Zep’s other influences as well… [/QUOTE] Oh, sure, that’s kind of what I meant when I said expanding the vocabulary of blues-based rock. It seems to me that no matter what influences they were trying to tie together, whether English folk or middle Eastern melodies, they were always firmly grounded in sticky, dirty blues rock. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/44 "2007-12-14T19:55:22Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] Oh, sure, that’s kind of what I meant when I said expanding the vocabulary of blues-based rock. It seems to me that no matter what influences they were trying to tie together, whether English folk or middle Eastern melodies, they were always firmly grounded in sticky, dirty blues rock. [/QUOTE] Yeah - we’re good. In terms of the Who having perfect albums - Who’s Next, Tommy, Quadrophenia, Live at Leeds, The Who Sell Out are all in the running. There’s much about Quadrophenia I don’t like, but Townshend comes back to it as a crowning achievement… but calling Zep I-IV perfect albums and not mentioning Physical Graffiti??? 🙂 That’s my personal fave… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/45 "2007-12-14T20:14:27Z")
[QUOTE=WordMan] Yeah - we’re good. In terms of the Who having perfect albums - Who’s Next, Tommy, Quadrophenia, Live at Leeds, The Who Sell Out are all in the running. There’s much about Quadrophenia I don’t like, but Townshend comes back to it as a crowning achievement… but calling Zep I-IV perfect albums and not mentioning Physical Graffiti??? 🙂 That’s my personal fave… [/QUOTE] Well, I don’t think I count, I thought Zep 1 through Physical Graffiti are perfect. It wasn’t until Presence that they had a song that was short of perfect. So, as I said, I don’t count. By perfect, I mean every song is great. Think “Dark Side of the Moon” or “Wish you were here”. I just don’t have a Who album or CD that measures up to that except the various collections. Jim ---
**Author:** ![akira5822](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/53a042/32.png) [@akira5822](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/akira5822)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 8:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/46 "2007-12-14T20:38:46Z")
Entwhistle. The best bassist ever. … Excellent bassist But im thinking either Stanley Clarke or Cfiff Burton deserves that title ---
**Author:** ![Subterraneanus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a183cd/32.png) [@Subterraneanus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Subterraneanus)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 8:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/47 "2007-12-14T20:53:12Z")
[QUOTE=Biffy the Elephant Shrew] No contest whatsoever: everything about the Who (at least until they lost Moony, and their way) was miles above anything to do with Zeppelin. [/QUOTE] I agree. And Pete didn’t steal other people’s songs. Led Zeppelin is easily the most overrated band in rock. ---
**Author:** ![Mister\_Rik](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mister_rik/32/491_2.png) [@Mister\_Rik](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mister_Rik)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/48 "2007-12-14T20:58:08Z")
[QUOTE=pulykamell] I’m also just not a big fan of Moon’s style of constant 16th-note (or triplets or whatever) fills. It’s a stylistic preference, though–I don’t like a drummer that tries to fill up every bit of silence with a beat. He’s too much “in front” for my tastes. But he does rock and absolutely captures the rock spirit and the spirit of the Who. I can’t see the Who with any other drummer and I can’t see Moon with any other band. [/QUOTE] I don’t remember who said it - maybe it was Entwhistle - but I heard that, where bands like Zep succeeded by the musicians playing _with_ each other, The Who succeeded by the musicians playing _against_ each other. > [@WordMan](#): > > Pete’s got chops. But what was he going to do, fight for lead time with Entwhistle and Moon?? Alex Lifeson of Rush once said that, for years he considered Jimmy Page to be his biggest influence. But looking back at how his playing had evolved with Rush, he realized that his playing was much more like Townshend: providing texture and atmosphere instead of competing with a busy rhythm section. Anyway, I’ve never really been a fan of either The Who or Led Zeppelin, but I’ll take a crack: Since I’m a bassist I’ll start there. I’ll take JPJ over Entwhistle. This is mostly just a matter of preference. Both were brilliant - I just like JPJ’s overall feel better (despite the fact that my favorite bassist, Geddy Lee, has a style more akin to Entwhistle). The caveat is that I’ve heard more LZ songs than Who songs, so I’ve probably missed some Entwhistle lines that might change my opinion. Moon vs. Bonham: I’ll go with Moon. Again, a matter of preference, rather than a judgment of talent. The first thing that pops into my head is that I simply _hate_ the sound of Bonham’s kit. Although I’m not a drummer, I have a very definite idea of how I like drums to sound. I strongly prefer drums to sound resonant and to have a distinct “tone” to them, but to me Bonham’s drums sound flat and thuddy. My bias probably comes from the fact that I grew up in the era when most rock drummers used massive kits with multiple, precisely-tuned toms ala Keith Moon. But to my ears, even Ringo Starr got a better “tone” out of his 4-piece kit than Bonham did. Townshend vs. Page: I’ll say Page simply as the default, referring once again to the fact that I’ve heard more LZ than Who, and just haven’t heard many Who songs that feature Townshend doing much more than strumming or hitting power chords. Daltrey vs. Plant: Daltrey, hands down. As with Bonham’s drums, I can’t stand the sound of Plant’s squealing voice. I also don’t like his constant “Oh oh oh oooooooooooonnnnnneeeeeooo uh uh uh …”. I like singers who shut the hell up and get out of the way during the instrumental parts of songs. I like Daltrey’s versatility - the way he doesn’t sound exactly the same on every song - he changed his delivery to suit the mood of the song (though I suspect that, in some cases, it’s Townshend singing lead without me realizing it). And, like my favorite metal singers, Daltrey’s screams sound masculine, whereas Plant’s sound too feminine to my ears. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/49 "2007-12-14T21:06:43Z")
My brother is a musician and music geek, and he gave me this (very comprehensive, and thoughtful) reply: > [@](#): > > Moon/Bonham - the most similarities out of the pack. incorrigible, idiosyncratic, wildmen drummers, with unpleasant sides to their character. technically unconventional, hugely influential powerhouse drummers. > > Entwhistle/Jones - Entwhistle (‘the ox’) carved out an original, fluid bass style which matched and augmented Moon (no mean feat), as well as ably serving Townsend’s ambitious melody/dynamics interchange. The Bass and The Who was his thing. Jones however was a seasoned session man and sometime producer, adding keyboard and bass parts to a noteable raft of 60s records. This wider scope transferred across into Zeppelin as accomplished, eloquent flesh on the bones of Bonham/Page’s muscular, riff-driven unerpinnings. A great arranger, if anything. > > Townsend/Page - not much of a comparison really. Townsend the chief songwriter, and a perfectly able guitarist… a good guitarist, actually. but his strength was in the melody, vision and ambition of creating The Who, and all it stands for… his restless (and far from flawless) spirit forging them ahead, innovating, and guiding them organically through stylistic changes. A songwriting genius tillerman, big on hooks, who was also notable for creating some of the classic rock’n’roll moves (the windmilling arm, jumping around, trashing guitars etc). Page - what needs to be said? Possibly not _the_ most technically brilliant guitarist of his generation, but without doubt one of the most important. Personally one of my favourite. Another seasoned session man, he was a foremost rock guitarist, a powerhouse of original, sinewy rock riffs, a hell of a lead player… but really there was nothing he couldn’t do - as much influenced by the folkies of the world (Zep referenced Bert Jansch and Roy Harper at various points), he fingerpicked beautifully, as well as turning out playing heavily influenced by soul, funk, pop, reggae, experimental sounds and eastern harmony. Additionally - and it’s a big additionally - he produced all of Zeppelin’s records, as well as co-writing most of the material… a sonic architect, as well as a formidable guitarist. > > Daltrey vs Plant - very different vocally and in their sensibilities. Daltrey was a rough-neck bruiser, who was ordered to stop solving problems with his fists or leave the band. Accordingly, his style is direct, muscular rock/pop - not a tremendous range, not hugely idiosyncratic, but got the job done and was perfect for the band. “Workmanlike” if you’re being uncharitable… “meaty, beaty, big’n’bouncy” if you’re not. Plant - a fey, hippy type, much given to Tolkienesque noodlings in his lyrics which have rarely dated well. Vocally - a greater, higher, more unusual sounding range, much imitated and parodied. something of a template for a certain kind of accomplished, soaring male rock vocal. Important to note that Daltrey was a frontman, a cipher for Townsend’s ambitions… and Plant was a co-writer at the heart of the Led Zep sound. Perhaps where the most similarity lies is with the look and the presentation, especially in context of the times. The hippy peacock clothing, the manes of hair, the strident command of the stage - albeit with very different approaches. Not a thing there with which I disagree. ---
**Author:** ![pulykamell](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pulykamell/32/3166_2.png) [@pulykamell](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pulykamell)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/50 "2007-12-14T21:33:59Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] I don’t remember who said it - maybe it was Entwhistle - but I heard that, where bands like Zep succeeded by the musicians playing _with_ each other, The Who succeeded by the musicians playing _against_ each other. [/QUOTE] I know I’ve read that before, probably on the Dope, and perhaps even by you, but reading that simple statement had actually caused me to completely reassess the Who, and that reassessment gave me a much more favorable impression than I’ve had most my life (I was never much of a Who fan.) Also, it’s caused me to reassess Keith Moon, whom I thought was one of the most overrated drummers of all time (of course, people say that about my boy Bonham), and a drummer I wouldn’t put anywhere near any best drummers lists of mine. Now, though, I concede that he would certainly make my top ten. ---
**Author:** ![WordMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/e8c25b/32.png) [@WordMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/WordMan)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/51 "2007-12-14T21:48:45Z")
[QUOTE=Subterraneanus] I agree. And Pete didn’t steal other people’s songs. Led Zeppelin is easily the most overrated band in rock. [/QUOTE] And that’s what makes this a horse race. I respect a lot of your posts on music **Subterraneanus** , but couldn’t disagree with you more. And that’s cool - beauty, beholder, what have you. Did Page/Zep rip off artists? Yep - too many to count. Did they take the raw materials they ripped off and combine them into something new, innovative and important in its own way artistically? IMHO, absolutely. Picasso was a prick personally, who collaborated with Braques enough to co-develop Cubism, then tried to claim it as his alone, alienating Braques and earning derision from other artists - and this happened other times with him as well. He’s a dick but he’s still an artistic genious. I try to keep my moral judgment out of my music appreciation where possible, but that is a personal choice… ---
**Author:** ![Ludovic](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/7ab992/32.png) [@Ludovic](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ludovic)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 9:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/52 "2007-12-14T21:53:46Z")
[QUOTE=What Exit?] By perfect, I mean every song is great. [/QUOTE] Even Four Stick? I mean, one time I saw a digital jukebox in a bar and paging through the selections saw LZIV and said…yanno, they only have 1 or 2 songs from each album in general on this digital jukebox, but I bet they have all of them from LZIV…OTHER than Four Sticks. (and wouldn’t you know…) Don’t get me wrong, it’s well written enough that it would probably kick ass if Heart were to cover it, but I just wouldn’t call it a “great” song. It’s what keeps LZIV from being a perfect album. ---
**Author:** ![GargoyleWB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gargoylewb/32/199_2.png) [@GargoyleWB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GargoyleWB)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/53 "2007-12-14T22:22:00Z")
[QUOTE=Phase42] Moon vs. Bonham: I’ll go with Moon. Again, a matter of preference, rather than a judgment of talent. The first thing that pops into my head is that I simply _hate_ the sound of Bonham’s kit…even Ringo Starr got a better “tone” out of his 4-piece kit than Bonham did. [/QUOTE] Well said, I agree. This follows as well for Led Zep as a whole when compared to the Who on the basis of production values. Who album production and engineering is crisp, deep, bright and all of those other audiophile buzzwords. Pete’s guitar and Roger’s vocals have a life and energy that is just stripped out of Led Zep’s poor production values. My brain, when listening to Led Zep, is forced to fill in the fidelity it wishes was there. However in another universe, where Led Zep had a proper engineer in their studio that could do more than twiddle a balance knob back and forth, Led Zep would have been transendantly beyond any other band… ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/54 "2007-12-14T23:33:16Z")
[QUOTE=Ludovic] Even Four Stick? I mean, one time I saw a digital jukebox in a bar and paging through the selections saw LZIV and said…yanno, they only have 1 or 2 songs from each album in general on this digital jukebox, but I bet they have all of them from LZIV…OTHER than Four Sticks. (and wouldn’t you know…) Don’t get me wrong, it’s well written enough that it would probably kick ass if Heart were to cover it, but I just wouldn’t call it a “great” song. It’s what keeps LZIV from being a perfect album. [/QUOTE] I love it, great song. I threw it on as I write this post it. I love this song. I really do. It’s simple but great. Jim (I did say I was a bad example.) ---
**Author:** ![Enginerd](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/bcef8e/32.png) [@Enginerd](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Enginerd)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/55 "2007-12-14T23:47:58Z")
One area where I think the Who has a clear edge is in vocals. Not so much the Daltry-Plant question (although I definitely come down on Daltry’s side there), but on harmonies by the whole group. Everybody in the group could sing, and some of their work (I’m thinking mostly of _A Quick One While He’s Away_) is driven as much by the vocal parts as by Entwhistle and Moon. I’m having a hard time thinking of any Zeppelin song that features vocal harmonies on any level. ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [December 14, 2007, 11:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/56 "2007-12-14T23:59:15Z")
A couple of other things I’ve thought of (sorry, I don’t ever have complete thoughts :o ). As far as songs go, I think the Who did a lot more varied and intersting things, but at times veered off into not so appealing territory. Zep was plenty varied and all, but stayed the course a bit more, stylistically. One thing about the Who that can be maddening is that I think their greatest moments are their transitions betwen phrases, the emphases, the song within the song. Keith Moon and John Entwhistle played a big part here. Zep most definitely had better sustained riffage, though. Also, _Black Dog_ shuffled up on my iPod on the way home from work today, and I thought “Wow, John Paul Jones was like Ginger Rogers, doing everything Fred Astaire did, except backwards and in heels.” He could really lay in there in match up with Page’s anarchic riffing very nicely. Whereas Entwhistle was more of an anarchist himself, always pushing and going over the top. Two different styles, both great. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 3:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/57 "2007-12-15T03:07:11Z")
[QUOTE=Enginerd] One area where I think the Who has a clear edge is in vocals. Not so much the Daltry-Plant question (although I definitely come down on Daltry’s side there), but on harmonies by the whole group. Everybody in the group could sing, and some of their work (I’m thinking mostly of _A Quick One While He’s Away_) is driven as much by the vocal parts as by Entwhistle and Moon. I’m having a hard time thinking of any Zeppelin song that features vocal harmonies on any level. [/QUOTE] Battle of Evermore comes to mind quickly. ---
**Author:** ![Fourth\_Wall](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e5b9ba/32.png) [@Fourth\_Wall](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fourth_Wall)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/58 "2007-12-15T03:31:32Z")
Kind of still on topic: What’s your favorite album by each group? my vote: Who - Live At Leeds Zep - LZIII ---
**Author:** ![blondebear](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/blondebear/32/1022_2.png) [@blondebear](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/blondebear)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/59 "2007-12-15T03:49:56Z")
Apples and oranges. Pete speaks to me in a way Plant and Page never could. I never felt that I could be a character in a Led Zeppelin song. The opposite is true with The Who. Led Zep is a great, great band, but their music never touched me in the way The Who did. One category that you didn’t include was stage banter. The Who take that one hands down. ---
**Author:** ![astorian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ad7895/32.png) [@astorian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astorian)\ **Post date:** [December 15, 2007, 4:45am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984/60 "2007-12-15T04:45:19Z")
Biggest difference between the two bands: Led Zeppelin had the integrity and good sense to call it quits instantly when an irreplaceable member died. Can anyone think of another band that broke up at the height of its commercial popularity when they were all still on friendly terms JUST because it seemed like the right thing to do? How many bands ever walked away from more money than Led Zeppelin did? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-who-vs-led-zeppelin/429984.md?page=4)