# The whole concept of "hate crimes" is really, really dumb. **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [December 16, 2007, 7:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229 "2007-12-16T19:40:32Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/9fc348/32.png) [@The\_Flying\_Dutchman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Flying_Dutchman)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 2:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/21 "2007-12-17T02:48:24Z")
I feel the same way as the OP. It just isn’t fair to the rest of us males who aren’t part of a protected minority and are victims of an assault. Some of us I’m sure have faced violence as a result of “being different” Remember the school bullies? Perhaps we weren’t macho enough. But only if we can claim we were gay can we get our tormenter a more severe sentence. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/22 "2007-12-17T04:38:55Z")
[QUOTE=TJdude825] If I understand you correctly, the robbery is not what makes it a hate crime, it’s the racist messages. So, what if the racist messages are displayed in a non-criminal way? [/quote] I’m not a lawyer and I don’t know if the laws are the same everywhere, but my understanding is that nobody gets charged with a hate crime if there is no other crime committed. Hate crime charges are only added to other crimes. So if that’s correct, the racism itself is not criminalized. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 5:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/23 "2007-12-17T05:23:49Z")
[QUOTE=Polycarp] It judges on the basis of intent in exactly the same way as premeditated murder is distinguished from manslaughter. [/QUOTE] Well said, **Polycarp**. The criminal justice system takes intent into consideration all the time. Accidents are treated differently than deliberate acts. Premeditated crimes are treated differently than crimes committed in a moment of passion. Crimes against law enforcment officials are treated differently than crimes against normal citizens. A crime intended to harass or intimidate an entire class of citizens is worse than a crime directed at an individual. And, as such, it should be punished more harshly. ---
**Author:** ![lowbrass](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/dc4da7/32.png) [@lowbrass](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lowbrass)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 5:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/24 "2007-12-17T05:49:25Z")
[QUOTE=Mr. Excellent] Why should community X’s fear that “this guy may beat me because I’m black/gay/jewish/white/whatever” be given any more weight than a neighborhood’s fear that “this guy may beat me on my way to my car because he lives in this neighborhood and needs money for heroin”? I think both concerns are very, very serious, and require a serious response - but I can’t see why one requires a more vigorous response than the other. [/QUOTE] In the latter example, the perpetrator _would_ get a harsher punishment than simple assault, because the charges would be assault _and_ robbery. Any example you pick will be unique, so I don’t think it makes sense to analyze it in terms of “Is X worse than Y?” ---
**Author:** ![brickbacon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/898d66/32.png) [@brickbacon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/brickbacon)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/25 "2007-12-17T05:54:37Z")
[QUOTE=Hail Ants] Not to mention the unintentional but inevitable side-effect of making the lives of minorities **legally** not equal, but **more** valuable than non-minorities. [/QUOTE] Bullshit. Plenty of minorities have been charged with hate crimes against White people. In fact, I would be surprised to see any legislation that precludes minorities from being charged with hate crimes against a member of the majority. [Here](http://www.racismeantiblanc.bizland.com/005/02.htm) is one site (among countless others) that have links to articles regarding minorities charged with hate crimes against White people. [QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] I feel the same way as the OP. It just isn’t fair to the rest of us males who aren’t part of a protected minority and are victims of an assault. Some of us I’m sure have faced violence as a result of “being different” Remember the school bullies? Perhaps we weren’t macho enough. But only if we can claim we were gay can we get our tormenter a more severe sentence. [/QUOTE] Nonsense. See above. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 6:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/26 "2007-12-17T06:17:23Z")
[QUOTE=The Flying Dutchman] … It just isn’t fair to the rest of us males who aren’t part of a protected minority and are victims of an assault. … [/QUOTE] Really? Any reason that you didn’t just say it clearly _straight White males_? Got a cite that you have to be a member of a protected class? > [@](#): > > [**Hate Crime Statistics, 2006**](http://www.fbi.gov/ucr/hc2006/index.html) > In the Uniform Crime Reporting Program, the victim of a hate crime may be an individual, a business, an institution, or society as a whole. Nationwide in 2006, law enforcement agencies reported that there were 9,652 victims of hate crimes. Of these victims, ten were victimized in two separate multiple-bias incidents. > > **By Bias Motivation** > An analysis of data for victims of single-bias hate crime incidents showed that: \* 52.1 percent of the victims were targeted because of the offender’s bias against a race. > \* 18.1 percent were victimized because of a bias against a religious belief. > \* 15.3 percent were targeted because of a bias against a particular sexual orientation. > \* 13.5 percent were victimized because of a bias against an ethnicity/national origin. > \* 1.0 percent were targeted because of a bias against a disability. > **Racial bias** > Among the single-bias hate crime incidents in 2006, there were 5,020 victims of racially motivated hate crime.\* 66.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-black bias. > \* 21.0 percent were victims of an anti-white bias. > \* 4.8 percent were victims of an anti-Asian/Pacific Islander bias. > \* 1.5 percent were victims of an anti-American Indian/Alaskan Native bias. > \* 6.4 percent were victims of a bias against a group of individuals in which more than one race was represented (anti-multiple races, group). > **Religious bias** > Of the 1,750 victims of an anti-religion hate crime:\* 65.4 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-Jewish bias. > \* 11.9 percent were victims of an anti-Islamic bias. > \* 4.9 percent were victims of an anti-Catholic bias. > \* 3.7 percent were victims of an anti-Protestant bias. > \* 0.5 percent were victims of an anti-Atheist/Agnostic bias. > \* 8.4 percent were victims of a bias against other religions (anti-other religion). > \* 5.3 percent were victims of a bias against groups of individuals of varying religions (anti-multiple religions, group). **Sexual-orientation bias** > In 2006, of the 1,472 victims targeted due to a sexual-orientation bias: \* 62.0 percent were victims of an offender’s anti-male homosexual bias. > \* 20.9 percent were victims of an anti-homosexual bias. > \* 13.7 percent were victims of an anti-female homosexual bias. > \* 2.0 percent were victims of an anti-heterosexual bias. > \* 1.4 percent were victims of an anti-bisexual bias. **Ethnicity/national origin bias** > Hate crimes motivated by the offender’s bias toward a particular ethnicity/national origin were directed at 1,305 victims. Of these victims:\* 62.8 percent were targeted because of an anti-Hispanic bias. > \* 37.2 percent were victimized because of a bias against other ethnicities/national origins. > **Disability bias** > Of the 95 victims of a hate crime due to the offender’s bias against a disability:\* 74 were targets of an anti-mental disability bias. > \* 21 were victims of an anti-physical disability bias. Just to kill _this_ before it gets started, of the 5,020 victims of racially motivated hate crime in 2006, 21.0 percent were victims of an anti-white bias. > [@](#): > > [**State laws**](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime_laws_in_the_United_States#State_laws) > > 45 states and the District of Columbia have statutes criminalizing various types of bias-motivated violence or intimidation (the exceptions are AR, GA, IN, SC, and WY). Each of these statutes covers bias on the basis of race, religion, and ethnicity; 32 of them cover sexual orientation; 32 cover disability; 28 cover gender; 13 cover age; 11 cover transgender/gender-identity; 5 cover political affiliation. > > 31 states and the District of Columbia have statutes creating a civil cause of action, in addition to the criminal penalty, for similar acts. > > 27 states and the District of Columbia have statutes requiring the state to collect hate crime statistics; 16 of these cover sexual orientation. > > In [Wisconsin v. Mitchell](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wisconsin_v._Mitchell) ([508 U.S. 476 (1993](http://caselaw.lp.findlaw.com/scripts/printer_friendly.pl?page=us/508/476.html)) the Supreme Court unanimously held that state penalty-enhancement laws for hate crimes were constitutional and did not violate First Amendment rights to freedom of thought and expression. > [@](#): > > As defined in the 1999 NCVS (National Crime Victim Survey), “A hate crime is a criminal offense committed against a person or property motivated, in whole or in part, by the offender’s bias against a race, religion, ethnicity/national origin, gender, sexual preference, or disability. The offense is considered a hate crime whether or not the offender’s perception of the victim as a member or supporter of a protected group is correct”. > In the United States federal prosecution is possible for hate crimes committed on the basis of a person’s race, color, religion, or nation origin when engaging in a federally protected activity. As of October, 2007, Congress is considering legislation that would add gender, gender identity, sexual orientation, and disability to the list (see [Local Law Enforcement Hate Crimes Prevention Act of 2007](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Matthew_Shepard_Act)).[RIGHT][CITE](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hate_crime#United_States)[/RIGHT] So, as soon as Congress passes that law, men will be able to get their tormentors a more severe federal sentence too. CMC +fnord! > [@](#): > > Originally posted by **Hippy Hollow** > … You realize just by virtue of living in the US, you’re rich compared to most of the people in the world, don’t you? Just cause I got it and I think you’ll appreciate it, [The Global Rich List](http://www.globalrichlist.com/index.php) ---
**Author:** ![Qwertyasdfg](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/ecc23a/32.png) [@Qwertyasdfg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Qwertyasdfg)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 7:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/27 "2007-12-17T07:57:13Z")
I have thought about this topic in the past from time to time but never been able to get an easy answer. On the one hand, hate crimes are (or should be defined as) crimes motivated primarily by hate for the victim’s group rather than the victim as a person, and which and can reasonably be construed as intended to intimidate/threaten the group as a whole. Certainly punishment should fit the magnitude of the crime, and I think it’s fairly clear that this crime is of a higher magnitude than a crime motivated by greed or some personal dispute or whatever. Hate crime is a form of terrorism. As such a serious crime, it should only be applied to those cases where there is \*strong \*evidence that the crime truly was motivated by hate and intended to threaten the community at large (i.e. just because a criminal made racist comments in the past, and attacked that particular group doesn’t make the crime itself a hate crime. But if the crime was clearly motivated by hate and intended to intimidate, as in the murder of MLK, certainly it should be treated as a more severe crime.) On the other hand, the purpose of imprisonment should be at least partially be to rehabilitate the prisoner, otherwise we’d might as well keep them locked up for life. If we tack on extra years to a sentence beyond what we feel is necessary to rehabilitate the prisoner simply to make ourselves feel good about being tough on crime, and therefore release someone less-than optimally rehabilitated, we’re kind of shooting ourself in the foot. But then again, if we sentence based purely on some notion of optimal rehabilitation, we will not be discouraging the crime itself as much. Really though, as far as I know there’s very little rehabilitation going on in American prisons anyway, more of a crime college, so I say that until we’re willing to make a serious attempt at rehabilitation, we might as well keep hate-criminals off the streets as long as possible. So to summarize, hate crimes improve the punishment, deterrence and separation purposes of imprisonment, but probably undermine the notion of rehabilitation, but then we’ve pretty much given up on that anyway. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/28 "2007-12-17T14:03:25Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I’m not a lawyer and I don’t know if the laws are the same everywhere, but my understanding is that nobody gets charged with a hate crime if there is no other crime committed. Hate crime charges are only added to other crimes. So if that’s correct, the racism itself is not criminalized. [/QUOTE] And that’s the problem. Whites are often gratuitously accused of racism not only by non-whites but by many white liberals, as the recent rape hysteria at Duke University rape shows. If a white guy gets into a fight with a black guy and uses the “n” word in anger, he may find years added to his sentence for committing a hate crime. But if the guy he’s fighting uses words like “cracker” or “honky,” most likely nothing will be added to his sentence at all. The standards by which they’re judged won’t be the same; the white guy will be found guilty of “hate” much more quickly and easily than the black guy. There are no clear, universally accepted standards for judging what a hate crime is. I suspect many hate crimes against whites aren’t categorized as hate crimes simply because the victims are white. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 2:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/29 "2007-12-17T14:24:05Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] If a white guy gets into a fight with a black guy and uses the “n” word in anger, he may find years added to his sentence for committing a hate crime. [/quote] Not to dodge your question, which is a valid one, but what kind of fight is this guy getting into that he is being thrown in jail for years? Perhaps his choice of epithets is not his biggest problem. 😛 Yes, people might be more willing to suspect white people of racism - that wasn’t the whole story at Duke, but it was part of it - and the lack of a clearly defined standard of hate is an issue. If you’re going to say that white people are getting singled out, though, some kind of evidence would be good. > [@](#): > > But if the guy he’s fighting uses words like “cracker” or “honky,” most likely nothing will be added to his sentence at all. Upon what do you base this comment? Okay, you’ve created a hypothetical where something happens because you said it happens, but do you have evidence it actually occurs? I think **brickbacon** ’s post show that people do indeed get punished for anti-white bias. > [@](#): > > I suspect many hate crimes against whites aren’t categorized as hate crimes simply because the victims are white. I think white people, like everyone else, sometimes see prejudice against them even when there’s no evidence of it. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 2:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/30 "2007-12-17T14:45:58Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Not to dodge your question, which is a valid one, but what kind of fight is this guy getting into that he is being thrown in jail for years? Perhaps his choice of epithets is not his biggest problem. 😛 Yes, people might be more willing to suspect white people of racism - that wasn’t the whole story at Duke, but it was part of it - and the lack of a clearly defined standard of hate is an issue. If you’re going to say that white people are getting singled out, though, some kind of evidence would be good. Upon what do you base this comment? Okay, you’ve created a hypothetical where something happens because you said it happens, but do you have evidence it actually occurs? [/quote] The Jena affair, the phony Duke rape scandal and the Tawana Brawley hoax are all examples of how whites can suddenly find themselves accused of “hate crimes” on the basis of little or no evidence. [QUOTE=Marley23] I think **brickbacon** ’s post show that people do indeed get punished for anti-white bias. [/quote] (shrug) I didn’t say that no one ever gets punished for hate crimes against whites. [QUOTE=Marley23] I think white people, like everyone else, sometimes see prejudice against them even when there’s no evidence of it. [/QUOTE] True, but whites are obviously much more vulnerable than non-whites to unfounded accusations of racism. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 3:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/31 "2007-12-17T15:30:52Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] The Jena affair, the phony Duke rape scandal and the Tawana Brawley hoax are all examples of how whites can suddenly find themselves accused of “hate crimes” on the basis of little or no evidence. [/quote] I’m only vaguely familiar with the Tawana Brawley case, as it happened when I was 5. (It looks to me like the whole thing was crap.) While people were called racist in the Duke and Jena cases, nobody was charged with a hate crime. In fact, in the Jena case, no white people were arrested at all, and the racism charges came from the way school officials and law enforcement overlooked something that arguably was a hate crime. White people aren’t a minority. In that sense, yes, white people are more vulnerable to being accused of racism because, for obvious reasons, they are less likely to be victims of it. From the standpoint of legal hate crimes, though, I don’t see any evidence to support what you’re saying. ---
**Author:** ![Sitnam](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/6a8cbe/32.png) [@Sitnam](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sitnam)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/32 "2007-12-17T20:52:49Z")
And **VCO3** keeps saying he’s turned over a new leaf. ---
**Author:** ![The\_Hamster\_King](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/8edcca/32.png) [@The\_Hamster\_King](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_Hamster_King)\ **Post date:** [December 17, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/33 "2007-12-17T21:15:12Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] I’m only vaguely familiar with the Tawana Brawley case, as it happened when I was 5. (It looks to me like the whole thing was crap.) [/QUOTE] No one was charged with a hate crime in the Tawana Brawley case. In fact, the case was so shoddy that the grand jury refused to charge anyone with anything at all. ---
**Author:** ![Hail\_Ants](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/dc4da7/32.png) [@Hail\_Ants](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hail_Ants)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 8:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/34 "2007-12-20T08:27:05Z")
> [@Polycarp](#): > > And Harry did it because he hates Japanese, and Sakuro had the misfortune of crossing his path while he was angry. How, exactly, do you legally prove that he hates Japanese people? What is the legal definition of race hatred? What scale or degree do you use and at what point exactly does this certain abstract level of hatred (combined with violence) make you chargeable with a hate crime? The road to hell is paved with good intentions… ---
**Author:** ![Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ee7513/32.png) [@Crocodiles\_And\_Boulevards](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crocodiles_And_Boulevards)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 8:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/35 "2007-12-20T08:42:42Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] The Jena affair, the phony Duke rape scandal and the Tawana Brawley hoax are all examples of how whites can suddenly find themselves accused of “hate crimes” on the basis of little or no evidence. (shrug) I didn’t say that no one ever gets punished for hate crimes against whites. True, but whites are obviously much more vulnerable than non-whites to unfounded accusations of racism. [/QUOTE] Sorry, maybe I just haven’t been keeping up with the news, but I thought the Jena “affair” was clearly an example of a racially charged crime. Nooses hanging from a tree in an obvious nod to lynching is certainly a hate crime. On a quick review, I can’t find anything about white people being found guilty of hate crimes that there was no evidence for. A hate crime charge, like all other charges, does require evidence to prosecute it. As for being simply accused of hate crimes, well, I’ll admit that those kinds of things do happen. However, unless the accusations pan out in litigation, I don’t see what might be the problem besides negative publicity. In a legal sense, everyone is equally vulnerable to being accused of a hate crime. However, I take it to mean that in our society a white person is more likely to be “victimized” by this allegation because minorities are more likely to “play the race card.” Perhaps that expectation, in both directions, is yet another unfortunate stereotype we need to work on. ---
**Author:** ![Richard\_Parker](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/35a633/32.png) [@Richard\_Parker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Richard_Parker)\ **Post date:** [December 20, 2007, 10:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/36 "2007-12-20T10:12:38Z")
[QUOTE=Hail Ants] How, exactly, do you legally prove that he hates Japanese people? What is the legal definition of race hatred? What scale or degree do you use and at what point exactly does this certain abstract level of hatred (combined with violence) make you chargeable with a hate crime? The road to hell is paved with good intentions… [/QUOTE] I think you’re missing **Polycarp** ’s point. The legal system makes these kinds of judgments all the time. How exactly do you prove that a man killed his wife because of his extreme jealously over her recently discovered infidelity? What level of jealousy is necessary? We prove these things based on evidence, like any other crime. And a jury decides whether or not they find that evidence convincing in the case of guilt and a judge decides in the case of sentencing. ---
**Author:** ![pizzabrat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/e9c0ed/32.png) [@pizzabrat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pizzabrat)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/37 "2007-12-26T17:23:52Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] True, but whites are obviously much more vulnerable than non-whites to unfounded accusations of racism. [/QUOTE] Obviously? What are you basing that on? ---
**Author:** ![Stoid](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/stoid/32/272_2.png) [@Stoid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stoid)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/38 "2007-12-26T18:27:58Z")
[QUOTE=VCO3] Every once in a while I’ll hear about some murderer or offender getting extra punishment under some sort of “hate crimes” legislation, and I’m reminded of how completely retarded it is that we’ve managed to legislate people’s thoughts and beliefs. Seriously, it’s the closest thing we have to “thought crime.” [/QUOTE] I agree with you completely, and as a liberal, I find it terribly embarrassing and distressing that my side of the aisle is responsible for this crap, along with universities trying to control speech, etc. It grinds my ass. As for closest thing to a thought crime. though… I dunno. I could debate you about that, although now that I consider it, you’re probably right. I just happen to think that busting people for THINKING that they are going to meet a 13 year old for sex when no 13 year old actually exists is pretty much a thought crime and it pisses me off. (Look at it this way: if a 19 year old girl told you that she was 13 and looked it, and you fucked her, should you be busted? Fundamentally the same thing as the “to Catch a Predator” bullshit.) ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/39 "2007-12-26T22:28:18Z")
[QUOTE=Pochacco] Well said, **Polycarp**. The criminal justice system takes intent into consideration all the time. Accidents are treated differently than deliberate acts. Premeditated crimes are treated differently than crimes committed in a moment of passion. Crimes against law enforcment officials are treated differently than crimes against normal citizens. A crime intended to harass or intimidate an entire class of citizens is worse than a crime directed at an individual. And, as such, it should be punished more harshly. [/QUOTE] Well said, and I hope someday we will have laws against hate groups. Meaning those groups whose primary reason for being is to hate other groups of people. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [December 26, 2007, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229/40 "2007-12-26T22:31:39Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Well said, and I hope someday we will have laws against hate groups. Meaning those groups whose primary reason for being is to hate other groups of people. [/QUOTE] Such as…? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-concept-of-hate-crimes-is-really-really-dumb/430229.md?page=3)