# The whole 'Cuban conflict' thing is sour grapes, right? **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 12, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924 "2002-10-12T04:06:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![chique](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/4491bb/32.png) [@chique](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chique)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/1 "2002-10-12T04:06:53Z")
This’ll probably turn into a GD but I’m looking for the root cause, and as far as I’m concerned the root cause should be a GQ. Not that you need _my_ permission, but feel free to move if need be. As prologue I neither agree or disagree; I’m just trying to find out why I can’t legally smoke a Romeo and Juliet. So. Soviet Russia wanted missles in Cuba, the US said no, and we won. Then - in defense of the people of Cuba who were dealing with a revolution - we did the whole Bay of Pigs deal to rid the Carib of Communism. After we got our collective asses kicked in the Bay of Pigs we decided Cuban cigars were bad and evil and that dealing with the Cuban government was godless, communistic, and inhumane, and the only reason we hold up this pretense today is the political power of Dade County politicians. And sour grapes. Is that wrong? Right? Why or why not? ---
**Author:** ![Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/50afbb/32.png) [@Duck\_Duck\_Goose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Duck_Duck_Goose)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/2 "2002-10-12T04:10:00Z")
Well, the Root Cause is that the Soviet Union were the Bad Guys, and when it came time to choose up sides, Castro decided to play on the Bad Guys’ team. And the Powers That Be have never forgiven him for it. That’s all it is. ---
**Author:** ![techchick68](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ea5d25/32.png) [@techchick68](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/techchick68)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/3 "2002-10-12T04:10:22Z")
I was wondering something very similar myself. Curious, why is it “illegal” for a US Citizen to be a tourist in Cuba…a little different but along the same lines. Why has this been allowed to continue when we allow US Citizens to visit other countries with similar political regimes? ---
**Author:** ![Muffin](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/muffin/32/4341_2.png) [@Muffin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Muffin)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/4 "2002-10-12T04:32:00Z")
General Bullmoose is concerned that if you visit Cuba, you will return brainwashed, join a fifth column, and overthrow the U.S.A. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/5 "2002-10-12T04:36:28Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by chique \* > \*\*Soviet Russia wanted missles in Cuba, the US said no, and we won. Then - in defense of the people of Cuba who were dealing with a revolution - we did the whole Bay of Pigs deal to rid the Carib of Communism. \*\* Actually your timeline is wrong. The failed Bay of Pigs was in April of 1961, and the Cuban Missile Crisis was in October of 1962, so if there is any sour grapes, it would be the Cubans who had 'em last. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 4:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/6 "2002-10-12T04:40:25Z")
There is a bit of a chronology problem in the OP. Batista was a standard, corrupt, authoritarian disctator with U.S. support. As the people of Cuba demanded more freedom, some people in the U.S. (including the government) tended to agree. Castro emerged as the primary leader of the revolution and received a little bit of support from the U.S. Once Castro was in power, he instituted a number of “reforms” that basically took the country completely into the Marxist camp. (Castro was a true believer in Marxism–much more than, say, Kruschev). This would have irritated the U.S. in and of itself, but Castro then earned himself a lot of bad press by holding public “trials” of the overthrown government and landowners in atheltic stadiums, often followed by summary executions. In going Marxist, he also nationalized a lot of industry that had strong economic ties to U.S. interests. (He had never hid his Marxist beliefs and the support he had garnered from the U.S. had been the result of policy decisions involving _realpolitik_ and a belief in the U.S. that Batista had to go, but when he actually _instituted_ Marxist policies, he became the bad guy.) At _that_ point we placed embargoes on Cuban goods. Since we did not like the “new” (as we claimed) Castro, the U.S. supported a number of Cuban exiles in launching a counter-revolution at the Bay of Pigs. (The understanding was that the show trials should have turned the stomachs of the Cuban citizenry who would be glad to get rid of Castro.) The actual invasion was bungled; the number of people who actually wanted to get rid of Castro was seriously overestimated; the Cubans perceived the invasion as a joint effort by the (justifiably overthrown) land owners and the (obviously imperialistic) Yankees to overturn all their hard work at getting rid of Batista and Castro’s support was solidified. Once the U.S. was firmly established as an enemy, Castro openly turned for help to the U.S.S.R. who saw that island as a good offset to the missiles that the U.S. maintained in Turkey, and they moved a number of them in to “protect” Castro from further invasion. We objected, strenuously, and after some brinkmanship, the Soviets pulled a number of their missiles out of Cuba. (We chose not to acknowledge that some missiles stayed behind so as not to provoke further confrontation and the Soviets did not make an issue of announcing some missiles remained so that they could claim that they had never had that many missiles there to begin with.) Over the next couple of decades, the U.S. treated Cuba as nothing more than a Soviet colony. (It was certainly a Soviet client state.) During that period, a large number of Cuban exiles established themselves as a political force in Southern Florida and the U.S. has catered to nearly all their whims in terms of “punishing” Castro ever since. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 5:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/7 "2002-10-12T05:16:02Z")
> [@](#): > > …the only reason we hold up this pretense today is the political power of Dade County politicians. And sour grapes. Nail on the head. Although I might characterize “sour grapes” as “intertia.” ---
**Author:** ![red\_dragon60](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ce73a5/32.png) [@red\_dragon60](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/red_dragon60)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 5:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/8 "2002-10-12T05:51:24Z")
So what can be done to lift these restrictions? Would letter-writing do anything? What must be done to reopen Cuba? If Jimmy Carter isn’t enough to help, what is? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/9 "2002-10-12T05:59:02Z")
Castro has to die. I think when he does, you’re going to see the embargo lifted. ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 6:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/10 "2002-10-12T06:37:00Z")
Here are some links with information on the embargo and what you can do: [Global Exchange Cuba Campaign](http://www.globalexchange.org/campaigns/cuba/) [Oxfam Cuba Program](http://www.oxfamamerica.org/global/art1463.html) [Cuba Committee for Democracy](http://www.us.net/cuban/) [The Center for International Policy’s Cuba Project](http://www.ciponline.org/cuba/) [U.S. Chamber of Commerce](http://www.uschamber.com/_Political+Advocacy/Issues+Index/International+and+Trade/Cuba+and+Unilateral+Sanctions/default.htm) [American Friends Service Committee Cuba Program](http://www.afsc.org/intl/latamcb/cuba.htm) [U.S. Cuba Security Cooperation](http://www.uscubasecurity.org/) [More links from Cuba Solidarity/Project InfoMed](http://www.cubasolidarity.net/inlinks.html) ---
**Author:** ![flertbert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/e5b9ba/32.png) [@flertbert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/flertbert)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 7:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/11 "2002-10-12T07:41:50Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by techchick68 \* > \*\*I was wondering something very similar myself. > > Curious, why is it “illegal” for a US Citizen to be a tourist in Cuba…a little different but along the same lines. > > Why has this been allowed to continue when we allow US Citizens to visit other countries with similar political regimes? \*\* If the things that I’ve read on certain sites can be believed, then its not so much that you’re going to Cuba, its that you’re spending US dollars there. From what I gather, if you hop a plane to Mexico, and then to Cuba, they ain’t gonna do a whole lot to you when you get back to the States. (Do a google search on “world sex guide” and “cuban prostitution” and you’ll find lots of information for Americans wishing to travel to Cuba. I make no vouches for its accuracy, however.) ---
**Author:** ![An\_Arky](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/87869e/32.png) [@An\_Arky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/An_Arky)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 11:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/12 "2002-10-12T11:25:01Z")
Please excuse the rhetorical question, but, why/how do Cuban-Americans wield political influence so disproportionate to their relative population size? $, of course, is the obvious answer, but there’s got to be more than that going on here. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 1:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/13 "2002-10-12T13:56:14Z")
Because they are concentrated in FL, which is an important state for the presidential and congressional electoral process. With enough people there to swing an important state, they get attention. There are signs that they Cuban population in South FL is becoming less monolithic and this may affect the situation. ---
**Author:** ![voltaire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voltaire/32/313_2.png) [@voltaire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/voltaire)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 6:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/14 "2002-10-12T18:29:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Telemark \* > \*\*Because they are concentrated in FL, which is an important state for the presidential and congressional electoral process. With enough people there to swing an important state, they get attention. > > There are signs that they Cuban population in South FL is becoming less monolithic and this may affect the situation. \*\* What signs are those? I sure don’t see them when I go down into Miami. From what I see, the political clout of the Cuban population is in great part due to the fact that there are many Cuban-Americans who are extremely interested and engaged in politics. In comparison to other minority groups, Cubans have embraced the political system and become heavily involved in it at all levels. This is not typical of most other minority groups, thus you have a very vocal minority. Or if you live in Miami, majority. ---
**Author:** ![jimmmy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/73ab20/32.png) [@jimmmy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jimmmy)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 8:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/15 "2002-10-12T20:40:04Z")
Comparisons are odious but So.Fla Cuban political power has often reminded me of the evangelical power in the Republican Party: A (relatively) small cadre that is extremely active in party meetings at all levels, well financed, and who are always a large percentage of the party primary vote. Because of this activity, the time and $$ they throw in _tends_ to make them the king makers in party primarys, which in turn make them influential. (That it is happening in a top 10 population state helps as well). re the OP, Supporting the Embargo is probably litmus test no. 1 for thier support ---
**Author:** ![chula](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a4c791/32.png) [@chula](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/chula)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 8:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/16 "2002-10-12T20:46:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by voltaire \* > **What signs are those? I sure don’t see them when I go down into Miami.** From what I’m heard, the younger generation in Miami is more interested in going to a los Van Van concert than maintaining the embargo. ---
**Author:** ![japatlgt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/df705f/32.png) [@japatlgt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/japatlgt)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 9:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/17 "2002-10-12T21:08:32Z")
Its all about politics, man. end of rant ---
**Author:** ![amarinth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3be4f8/32.png) [@amarinth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/amarinth)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2002, 11:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/18 "2002-10-12T23:24:51Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by flertbert \* > **If the things that I’ve read on certain sites can be believed, then its not so much that you’re going to Cuba, its that you’re spending US dollars there. From what I gather, if you hop a plane to Mexico, and then to Cuba, they ain’t gonna do a whole lot to you when you get back to the States.** Heard almost the same - except you go through Canada, and aren’t allowed to spend any money there. (If you do, and they catch you, there will be some questions that need answering) ---
**Author:** ![Mammie](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/49beb7/32.png) [@Mammie](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mammie)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/19 "2002-10-13T01:48:56Z")
Did you catch the 25th Anniversary interview last night? Barbara Walters interviewed Fidel Castro. ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [October 13, 2002, 6:44am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924/20 "2002-10-13T06:44:33Z")
Cuba was a Soviet client state, but even the USSR wasn’t happy about it. > **[Newsday | Long Island's & NYC's News Source](https://www.newsday.com)** > > Breaking News, data & opinions in business, sports, entertainment, travel, lifestyle, plus much more. Newsday.com is the leading news source for Long Island & NYC. > [@](#): > > Weeks after the Soviet Union agreed to pull the missiles from Cuba, Khrushchev worried that an “irrational” Castro would renew tensions with the United States – and perhaps provoke war. > > Cuba “wants practically to drag us behind it with a leash, and wants to pull us into a war with America by its actions,” Khrushchev said in a Nov. 16, 1962, letter to diplomatic aides in Cuba. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-cuban-conflict-thing-is-sour-grapes-right/131924.md?page=2)