People like you trouble and scare the shit out of me.
Humans are inherently valuable. We have much more worth than a bunch of animals that sit around doing nothing. We are only as destructive as we are because of our ability to use tools. If a tiger could use a chainsaw, he would probably cut down a forest too, if it made catching some prey easier.
We are as gods compared to animals, with potential to become so much more than mere animals. We can control our own destiny, where the environment controls the destiny of lesser animals. We can have compassion, ambition, we feel love. AFAIK, Tigers don’t feel love for other tigers except their own kin. Humans can love their whole species.
I don’t even see how anybody can compare a Tiger and a human, then come out and say a Tiger (or any lower animal) is better.
Humans may be cruel, but Nature itself is very, very cruel and heartless. We rise above mother nature by the ability to have compassion. As a whole we are destructive and sometimes needlessly cruel, but we are getting better. And we would have to work hard to beat mother nature in cruelty.
I can’t remember who said this first, but it encapsulates my viewpoint on the whole humans vs. animals debate:
‘If hooking a monkey’s brain up to a car battery is going to some day find a cure for AIDS, the I have only two things to say. The red is positive. The black is negative.’
I will bow out of this, she will have to answer for herself, I was making a hopefully educated guess based on a common talking point in Green Literature. It was only a guess however.
Like I said, if people think they are so much better than other animals, they can fucking well act like it. That means not destroying other animals just cuz, well , they aren’t as important as people. It also means not killing other people just cuz they don’t agree with us, but that would be another thread.
Again: IMO people are not inherently valuable. End of story. Your mother, sister, brother, cousin, is not more important to me than the lions and tigers and bears, oh my! If all the people on earth, including me, my husband, my kids and my grandkid, all died tomorrow it wouldn’t be any more tragic than the Steller’s Sea Cow becoming extinct because of human predation.
And no, I do not support the killing of person to save other animals…unless you could promise me that it would. If you can promise me that my death will cure feline AIDS (hooking my brain up to a car battery ala catsix), I’ll bring the cables and see you there. Hell, if you show me that it will take you a long way to a cure, I’ll be there. I can’t answer for the other members of my family.
Nature of the beast is for the beast to behave in a way that best propagates itself. Anything else is window dressing. I may like window dressing and carre about window dressing but it is still window dressing. Since I am the beast in question then of course I care about my family first, my kinfolk second, others distantly related next, then organisms like me and last those dissimilar to me. Of course it is self-centered and arrogant … but we are what we are. Beauty? Only as it serves the preceding’s interests.
Now of course an informed POV of the preceding is that the long term continuation of the propagation and survival of my descendents will be served well by having a complex web of varied ecosystems with lots of buffering and genetic variety built in. It is in my selfish interests to preserve that as a resource for my future generations.
I am a human, and my allegiance is to my tribe. A human’s life is worth more to me than any animal. That said, I understand that eliminating every other species of animal in the world would make all us humans dead pretty darn quickly. In fact, since Mother Nature is a bitch, you never know what animals have to teach us, or what eliminating part of an ecosystem will do to mess up the rest of the world.
So keeping animals alive is pretty important for a healthy biosphere for all us humans.
I don’t think you know what any of these words mean, with the possible exception of “are.” Nothing is inherently valuable. Nothing. Humans may be valuable to you, another human but we mean diddly-squat in the grand scheme of things. You know what would happen to the Universe if we all disappeared suddenly? Absolutely nothing, that’s what. Humans are only valuable to other humans.
Well, senseless destruction of animals is stupid, I don’t think you will get any argument. I think if you looked you would see that such senseless destruction happens only on the extreme end of the spectrum. Most destruction occurs as a by-product of our growth, not some sick minds plotting the downfall of all the other species.
As for killing people that don’t agree with me? Well if it is down to harmless opinions, I would agree. If some psychotic, obsessed cretin decided to put other humans at risk just because they are sick in the head and think animals are more important than humans, yeah, I would kill. I wouldn’t like killing another human being, but if it was to save some ignorant hippie from destroying mankind to save some stupid beetle, I’d do it in a heartbeat.
Well, I’m sorry you feel that lions and tigers and bears are more important to you than people. I think one airplane full of people dying is greatly more tragic than the extinction of all the species of plants and animals humans have caused. In fact, I support killing a fuzzy wuzzy bear just to keep one human warm, and if it meant keeping all the humans in the world warm, I would support killing all the bears for their fur.
Well, that would be your sacrifice, and while I think it would be a stupid waste, I do support your right to make that choice. However, wishing my and my families extinction because of your twisted and sick values and obvious self-esteem issues, is something totally different. You may run over my kids to save a mangy mutt running across the road, but that would just mean you are a sociopath.
Uhm, ok. I think I am well aware of what value is, and what humans are. I also have a pretty good grasp of what inherent value is. I can read dictionaries you know.
Since I am human, of course other humans are valuable to me, or I should say they have more value to me than other animals.
As for the grand scheme of things. Big deal. The world will go on just fine without moss-freckled tortoises too.
Here is a difficult concept for you to understand, mouthbreather:
My statement was in context of an argument. Read the whole argument, and ditch your juvenile philosophical semantics.
Well. I guess you sure told me. Yep, you win teh internets. :dubious:
Look, I was attempting to start a civil dialogue with you; any offensive tone you perceived in my post was unintended–though in retrospect, I can see where you might think otherwise. I’m sorry if it sounded snarky; it was meant to convey a sense of dry sarcasm. If you want to carry on without the unwarranted hostility, I’d be happy to but if you’re just going to sling mud there really isn’t any point to it.
No, my response was simply defensive. It seemed you were saying I was stupid by only knowing what one word in a sentence I wrote meant.
I chose my wording poorly, but I wasn’t making any grand claims about intrinstic human worth from the perspective of the universe, only that from the perspective of another human, myself, all humans are inherently valuable. In other words, in my opinion of people, all people are born with value that I (and hopefully others) attach. From birth, no actions necessary, no great deeds, just all humans have more value to me than any (other) animal.
So I am sorry for the insult, I overreacted and hope you don’t think too much less of me. Though it also doesn’t help that this is the Pit and sometimes I incorrectly feel I should be insulting.
Some points of clarification: I’m not talking about the extinction of pretty animals like tigers (although I realize my examples in my OP could have led people to think that) - I’m talking about the extinctions of ALL living things - from the algae in the seas to elephants on the veldt.
When I say mass extinctions, I mean the massive amount of extinctions humans are responsible for directly or indirectly - the numbers of species of all kinds that we have wiped out. According to Wikipedia -
{Bolding mine}
The inherent value of humans? Negligible, except possibly as food for large predators and fertilizer for plants, bacteria, molds and fungus after we die. All of our accomplishments mean nothing in the grand scheme of things, and a lot of them actually have a negative impact on the earth.
Animals don’t care about conservation of species and high-minded stuff like that. They aren’t capable of abstract thought. Humans are, though, so shouldn’t we be holding ourselves to a higher standard than just, “See, want, take?”
We don’t own the planet or anything on it; we are just animals with higher brain functions, too, but I think we have the capacity to look after other species (plant, animal, and other). Maybe we don’t. Maybe we’re kidding ourselves about how high our brain functions are, if we can’t seem to get the pretty obvious fact that if we lose all biodiversity on earth we lose the human race, too.
I’m with featherlou all the way, but these threads always depress me. Some people I just feel I can’t reason with or establish any meaningful dialog. The people who’ll claim the sanctity of human life (that alone gets a huge roll eyes from me) and then can support the death penalty when it suits their whim. There are a few wacko tree huggers too though. And I hate stupid arguments that appeal to human emotions, like “oh but the tigers don’t care about you!”. Stupid. Fuck.
Well, talking about the extinction of humankind is on quite a different level than removing a criminal from society by death. If you can’t see that, I guess there really isn’t anything to discuss.
Say anything you like about how worthless humans are, but please wait until they’ve voted the Republicans out of the White House. Timing is critical here.
You always confuse me a little. I take it you mean these current Neo-Con Republicans as Democrats are usually less Libertarian than Republicans? Or am I missing something?
