# The Whole Nine Yards Explanation **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [September 15, 1999, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473 "1999-09-15T19:42:00Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![system](https://global.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/original/2X/e/e489c3b7d8fce19c4b355dd4fc3f88cc39c34b87.png) [@system](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/system)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 7:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/1 "1999-09-15T19:42:00Z")
I was very surprised to see while browsing the archives that the origin of this phrase was never finnaly settled. I was even more surprised to see that even with a dozen suggestions, no one was even remotely close to the true genesis of this phrase. Well, here you go. ``` When bombers in WWI were doing there thing, they had gunners on either side of the plane to shoot down enemy fighter planes. ``` These large machine guns were loaded with bullets in a magazine that if stretched out, measured 27 feet, or 9 yards. If a gunner fired all his ammo at his foe, he gave him the full nine yards. Simple enough, no? -Andrew Braksator Link to the column [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html) Jill [Note: This message has been edited by JillGat] ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 7:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/2 "1999-09-15T19:45:00Z")
> [@](#): > > Simple enough, no? No. * * * Saint Eutychus [www.disneyshorts.org](http://www.disneyshorts.org) ---
**Author:** ![DrFidelius](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drfidelius/32/3447_2.png) [@DrFidelius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrFidelius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 8:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/3 "1999-09-15T20:14:00Z")
## Unfortunately, the recorded use of the phrase pre-dates World War II. It even predates the Trojan War. In fact, one translation of the Eltdown Shards specifies that the altar cloaks for Shub-Niggurath must be made from nine yards of vellum. Thus it possibly pre-dates modern Homo Sapiens… Dr. Fidelius, Charlatan Associate Curator Anomalous Paleontology, Miskatonic University Homo vult decipi; decipiatur ---
**Author:** ![Andrew\_Braksator](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/71c47a/32.png) [@Andrew\_Braksator](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Andrew_Braksator)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 8:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/4 "1999-09-15T20:17:00Z")
I have never seen, nor heard of any pre-WWI references to the phrase, the whole nine yards. Please enlighten me, and show me your evidence. -Andrew ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/5 "1999-09-15T20:54:00Z")
You’re both wrong. The phrase derives from land surveyor’s lingo when they were pioneering the prairies. As you are aware, land was divided into square-mile sections. Each section was divided into nine equal sub-sections called “yards”. Therefore, someone who farmed a whole section “went the whole nine yards.” * * * “Owls will deafen us with their incessant hooting!” W. Smithers ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 9:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/6 "1999-09-15T21:00:00Z")
Wait, wait, based on further research, it appears that the Scots called the close-cropped grass around the hole on a golf course the “yard”. Today, of course, we call this part of the golf course the “green”. The Scots being a notoriously thrifty people, most Scottish golf courses had only nine holes, rather than the more generous eighteen we are familiar with today. When Angus McTavish and his kilted pals had completed a round of golf, thye’d gone “the whole nine yards.” Och Aye. Hoot mon. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/7 "1999-09-15T21:22:00Z")
Andrew, our apparent insensitivity to your post is the result of seeing this come up with such amazing regularity that we have become inured to any attempt to solve it. As you have requested a pre-WWII cite (which I do not have handy) I will also ask you for a citation. Yours sounds suspiciously like variation on the “fighter planes carried 27 feet of ammo” that has been debunked on several occasions. If you have a citation we would be delighted to see it, however, I will point out two obstacles before you begin: 9 yards is 324 inches. The waist gunners of U.S. bombers were always armed with .50 caliber weapons (excepting a few Catalinas and a few modified YB-40’s). They were routinely provided 1,000 rounds of ammo. 1,000 time 1/2 inch (ignoring the extra width for the casing and the links or earlier webs) is 500 inches–rather more than 324. The implied phrase (that you did not exactly use, but that we have seen frequently) that shooting at a specific enemy resulted in “giving him the whole nine yards” would never have been uttered by any gunner who did not want to be reamed thoroughly by the rest of the crew: shooting your entire load at a single plane is wasteful and a sign of really bad shooting skills. * * * Tom~ ---
**Author:** ![Ennius](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e9bcb4/32.png) [@Ennius](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ennius)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/8 "1999-09-15T21:28:00Z")
Och aye, indeed. The first golf courses were notorious for the fluctuation in the number of holes they each had–from five to seven to, indeed, nine. But not until Royal St. Andrews went to nine (and, I believe though I may be wrong, twelve) on the way to eighteen did other golf courses standardize. I’ll bet someone out there know the exact dates for RSN’s adding its eighth and ninth holes…and I’ll bet that someone will come up with a reference to “nine yards” from before that date. Let’s face it, folks, this one’s never gonna get solved. But, if I get to ask God one question when I get to heaven, it’ll be this one. ---
**Author:** ![warinner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/8edcca/32.png) [@warinner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/warinner)\ **Post date:** [September 15, 1999, 10:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/9 "1999-09-15T22:04:00Z")
> [@](#): > > The waist gunners of U.S. bombers were always armed with .50 caliber weapons (excepting a few Catalinas and a few modified YB-40’s). They were routinely provided 1,000 rounds of ammo. 1,000 time 1/2 inch (ignoring the extra width for the casing and the links or earlier webs) is 500 inches–rather more than 324. Really? Everything I have found says that the waist gunners of the B-17 had 400 rounds. See the specs here for the B-17E: [http://www.fscwv.edu/users/rheffner/b17/b1708.html](http://www.fscwv.edu/users/rheffner/b17/b1708.html) I don’t think the 400 rounds was in a continous belt either. Check out this picture: [http://letadla.pinknet.cz/b17/gal/b17\_9.jpg](http://letadla.pinknet.cz/b17/gal/b17_9.jpg) Beside the magazines attached to the guns themselves you can see three other cases of ammunition which I assume are reloads for the guns. The boxes are labelled as .50 cal but the capacity is difficult to read. It looks like 200 something to me. In any event, no bomber gunner would get the chance to empty an entire belt at a fighter. At best they could count on a snap shots of a second or two. And as far as the antiquity of ‘the whole nine yards’ goes, etymologist Jesse Sheidlower says he has a cite dating from 1966. Sheidlower says there is no known etymology for the phrase: [http://www.randomhouse.com/jesse/?date=19971128](http://www.randomhouse.com/jesse/?date=19971128) Andrew Warinner ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 1999, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/10 "1999-09-16T02:46:00Z")
Reiterating what tom said: we have heard (as has Cecil) dozens of explanations, all of which are second hand. “I heard that the origin is…” just doesn’t cut it. You wanna prove an origin story, PROVE IT. Not just hearsay, but cite sources, dates, and authorities… and then you’ll stand some chance of being taken seriously. It actually started as the phrase the whole whine yards, from people who come up with unsubstantiated origin stories, but the word “whine” got corrupted over time. ---
**Author:** ![AuraSeer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/c2a13f/32.png) [@AuraSeer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AuraSeer)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 1999, 6:16am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/11 "1999-09-16T06:16:00Z")
Nah, you still haven’t got it. Here’s the real story. The phrase is from medieval Germany. When little kids would refuse to do as their parents asked-- saying “nein”, which is of course German for “no”-- the parents would beat them with a stick. The preferred stick for this beating was a three-foot-long willow switch. If the kid was only being a little sulky, you would hold it near the middle and give him a few token smacks. But if acted up some more, you’d hold it off-center, to get more leverage and thus administer a more painful beating. So, when a child was so bad that he deserved the worst kind of punishment, his father would hold the switch at its very end, and “give him the whole nein yard”. * * * Of course I don’t fit in; I’m part of a better puzzle. ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 1999, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/12 "1999-09-16T12:54:00Z")
As you may have noticed from this thread, the question of the origin of the saying “The whole nine yards” has caught my attention. I must admit that I became fascinated by the phrase and its history. Semi-obsessive that I am, I spent much of last night researching the etymology of the saying. Disappointingly enough, I was unable to find a definitive answer. I did find a few more possibilities, including: ``` “The whole nine yards” is a dental term. Dental floss was originally grown on vast ranches in Montana. It was harvested from a plant related to corn (*Pomegrante zappus*) with tassellike growths which grew to a uniform length of nine yards. These strands were harvested, dried and distributed to dentists to use to promote proper oral hygiene. An especially stubborn obstruction between a bicuspid and a molar might require an entire strand – which brings us back to our saying. My research uncovered many such explanations for the source of our favorite phrase. Unfortunately, none of the histories I found provided the rigorous standards of documentation which is the watchword of this denizen of the SDMB. But fear not, fellow Dopers! My journey through the wiles of the philology and etymology were serendipitous. I discovered something far more fascinating than the source of “The whole nine yards.” At the risk of straining my natural modesty, I submit that my discovery will provide revolutionary insights into the nature of language, human social development and physio-linguistics. Enough blather! Here’s what I learned. **Every human language I researched used a combination of phonemes which sounded very much like the English phrase “The whole nine yards.”** Incredible, but true. Here are some examples: ``` **Spanish** \* Dejo leniñe llards\* “Where are the chipmunks?” **Mandarin** _Ti Ho Le Ni Ne Yar Deese_ “I am a notary public, madam.” **Flemish** _Deniyrds_ “Once, when I was kid, we lived in a house by a lake. It was nice, but there were many bugs there, especially in the summers. It had green shutters. The house, that is. Not the bugs. How’s your mom?” **Welsh** _Llanden Ddæhee wweerhooaalfair nneeanderllanfog llandoyear raeidfairsolwithingame_ “Cheese” **French** _Le hoalé naine johards_ “I surrender!” (Nobody saw that one coming, huh?) **Old High German** _Dö Hurlst Nun Jahrds_ “My dog has no nose.” **Middle High German** _Die Harlt Nein Jahreden_ “How does he smell?” **Late High German** _Das Hoort Neün Jeardenin_ “TERRIBLE!” **Polish** _Dalsk czorl knûrn jzarlskis_ “I am the rock of love.” **Cantonese** _zhe cho le ne nay yee la deezha_ “No MSG” **Russian** _De horlt nin loards_ “Who is John Galt?” **Danish** _Dinsk wehurlsk nöne yœlrsken_ “Why have you lengthened my marmots?” **Greek** _Te Ψιv Νιv Υaρdζ_ “Introduce me to your sister, Cyril.” **Sanskrit** _Deholninjhards_ “Thank you, come again.” ``` I could go on and on. I’ve documented similar phrases in at least 42 more modern and historical languages ranging from Proto-Indo European, Urdu and Frisian through Navajo, Kyrgyz, and Ebo. I’m just astounded that none of the so-called “academics” have discovered this amazing correlation before. I’m booking a flight to Oslo. ``` * * * “Owls will deafen us with their incessant hooting!” W. Smithers ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 16, 1999, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/13 "1999-09-16T18:16:00Z")
No, wait, 9 yards was how long my last post was. ---
**Author:** ![Big\_Iron](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e36b37/32.png) [@Big\_Iron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Big_Iron)\ **Post date:** [September 17, 1999, 2:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/14 "1999-09-17T02:38:00Z")
At this point, it appears that most researchers either cling to an unsatisfactorily-established answer (e.g., the men’s suit or the concrete explanation), or, more often, concede that we may never know (which I also find highly unsatisfactory). A relatively new (to me) explanation has lately been advanced that prisons had a nine yard “no man’s land” one had to cross in order to escape. These guys (inter alia) note that one: [http://www.greenapple.com/~words1/back-s.html](http://www.greenapple.com/~words1/back-s.html) These guys give a decent rundown of the situation, noting that nine yards isn’t a very good match for any known measurement (and they also plug Cecil!): [http://www.wilton.net/wordorw.htm](http://www.wilton.net/wordorw.htm) These nuts, meanwhile, claim the earliest written reference to the term was in 1970 (which I cannot disprove, except to note that virtually every source believes the expression to c=vastly predate 1970): [http://www.m-w.com/textonly/wftw/97dec/120997.htm](http://www.m-w.com/textonly/wftw/97dec/120997.htm) ---
**Author:** ![Jomolungma](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/b2d939/32.png) [@Jomolungma](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jomolungma)\ **Post date:** [September 19, 1999, 9:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/15 "1999-09-19T09:02:00Z")
I have followed this thread with no small amount of fascination; and, while noting many of the most common explanations as well as several which are, to say the least, exotic, none has hit the mark. Allow me, if you will, to supply the definitive word on the matter. I offer it in the spirit of scholarship, having spent untold hours following the etymological trail (much longer than nine yards, you can be sure). Some years ago, while poring through a dusty treatise ‘proving’ Sir Francis Bacon’s authorship of The Bard’s work, I stumbled on the line ‘thee whol nyne dartes.’ My curiosity piqued, I dug further, believing it to be a forerunner of the phrase in question. Alas, I hit a dead end. The reference, plucked from one of Bacon’s lesser-known quartos, was to the total number of projectiles used in a tavern game popular among the rougher classes at the time. I admit to feeling discouragement, but I remained undaunted. There ensued an arrid stretch, years during which my most herculian efforts turned up nothing. Enter Serendipity. It was at a Harvard lecture on Marco Polo and 13th Century cartography that Dr. Bertram Worcester talked of the great explorer’s claim to have gone the ‘the whole nine charts’ in his travels. Contextually the reference was obvious, though in a tantalizing aside, Worcester mused that the intrepid Polo had no doubt borrowed a phrase from the nomads he had encountered and metamorphosed it into his own. The good professor did not say what the original phrase was, but the hint was enough to send me away with renewed hope. I come, patient reader, to the moment of my ‘Eureka.’ While preparing a paper on the ancient folk customs of the Himalayan peoples, I happened upon the following explanation recounted by Sir Geoffrey Cuttle-Broadnash in his definitive “Shadow of Llasa: The Primitives of Shangri-la.” I quote: “One matrimonial practice, common amongst the nomads of Mongolia, later modified by the pre-Buddhist dwellers of the High Mountains who clung so tenaciously to their rarified aeries, concerned a young woman’s dowry. If her family was of modest means, then a yak and, perhaps, a winter’s supply of dung for the fire was deemed sufficient. However, if the prospective bride’s parents were among the well-to-do of the tribe, then a more substantial dowry – multiple beasts, yak robes and woven-hair amulets – would be expected. If a young woman came from the tribe’s most elite family, anything short of an array of domiciles was deemed unsuitable. Hence, among these tribesmen, providing this most handsome of dowries was deemed “to go the whole nine yurts.” I am happy to say, with no little humility, “case closed.”. ---
**Author:** ![Zyada](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zyada/32/3028_2.png) [@Zyada](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zyada)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 1999, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/16 "1999-09-20T05:46:00Z")
I have a book called “Celtic Fairy Tales” originally published in 1892. The first time I read it, I swear it used the phrase “whole nine yards to Dublin”. Unfortunately, I didn’t mark the reference, and when I reread the book, I couldn’t find the phrase. If anyone would like to read this book and either find the phrase used, or tell me I need to see a doctor - e-mail me your address and I will send this book to you _at my expense_. This is driving me nuts! ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 20, 1999, 7:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/17 "1999-09-20T19:22:00Z")
My long winded spiel was funnier. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 1999, 4:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/18 "1999-09-21T04:15:00Z")
No question, Frank, your translations win the prize: two nights in Philadelphia (at your own expense, of course, we can’t afford to go the whole nine… um…) ---
**Author:** ![NicePete](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/ee7513/32.png) [@NicePete](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NicePete)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 1999, 1:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/19 "1999-09-21T13:18:00Z")
Second prize: Four nights in Philadelphia ---
**Author:** ![Eutychus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/a3d4f5/32.png) [@Eutychus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eutychus)\ **Post date:** [September 21, 1999, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473/20 "1999-09-21T19:58:00Z")
If I remember correctly the actual answer is a distortion of another phrase. It seems that there was a certain vineyard that grew grapes that amde an especially good wine. It got so popular that they could ony afford to sell it once a year at Christmastime. Hence the area became known as the Noel Wine Yards. Honestly, I think this thing is going to go on until the fat lady sings … * * * Saint Eutychus [www.disneyshorts.org](http://www.disneyshorts.org) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards-explanation/473.md?page=2)