# "the whole nine yards" **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [June 3, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188 "2002-06-03T16:44:20Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 4:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/1 "2002-06-03T16:44:20Z")
Regarding the expression “the whole nine yards” (see [http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2\_252.html](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html) ), this site [http://www.top-greetings.com/jokes/](http://www.top-greetings.com/jokes/) includes the following paragraphs. * * * Received from: Factmaster \*\*\* Today’s Useless Fact \*\*\* Why does the phrase to go ‘the whole nine yards’ mean to carry some act to full completion, with a sense that it is accomplished without stopping and at full speed? It may seem like the phrase has something to do with team sports. Do the nine yards represent distance won or lost on a football field? Although the expression is popular among sports fans, the origin lies elsewhere. One theory says the expression came from the cement delivery industry, where a rotating mixer truck carries nine cubic yards of cement. To discharge the whole nine yards would be to fully complete the task. Another theory describes the space between the inner and outer walls of a prison, which was nine yards wide. To go the whole nine yards was to escape entirely. The most popular theory refers to World War II war planes, which carried machine gun ammunition belts 27 feet (nine yards) long. To discharge the whole nine yards was to fully empty the belt. * * * The first of these is included in the Cecil’s column, the second I have never seen elsewhere, and the third is the only explanation I had ever seen before reading the item above and finding Cecil’s column. Unfortunately, no evidence to support any of the theories is given, nor is there any early usage citation. Does anyone know if the expression was used before WWII, or how long a machine gun ammunition belt for a WWII plane really was? ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/2 "2002-06-03T18:03:07Z")
This topic has been reviewed numerous times before – [click here (may take a while to display)](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/search.php?s=&action=showresults&searchid=80739&sortby=lastpost&sortorder=descending) for a list of nine earlier threads in “Comments on Cecil’s Columns” on this topic which you can review. From the earlier threads, no one seems to have seen the expression before the 1960s, which makes it doubtful that it dates back to WW2. (One small warning – because this topic has come up so many times, some of the earlier threads degenerated pretty quickly to silliness, so many of the comments were intended as jokes). ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/3 "2002-06-03T19:19:17Z")
Thank you, **whitetho**. I suppose that it is a sign of my newbie-ness that, having found a column of Cecil’s which included reader comments, I did not realize that there might be more reader comments which were not included. (Now that I have seen some of those reader comments, I can see why **some** of them were not included. 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 9:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/4 "2002-06-03T21:09:42Z")
whitetho, I have taken the liberty to C&P the threads found in your search into my post. A search takes up significant server resources. I would ask posters not to post links to a search, but instead to post the threads found as a result of that serach. [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=108055](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=108055) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70677](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=70677) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63008](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=63008) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50725](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50725) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=29921](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=29921) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=2905](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=2905) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1734](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1734) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1379](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1379) [http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=573](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=573) ---
**Author:** ![whitetho](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/whitetho/32/1059_2.png) [@whitetho](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/whitetho)\ **Post date:** [June 3, 2002, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/5 "2002-06-03T22:59:41Z")
At the time, I should have noted that the search I set up was limited to only seaching titles, and restricted to only the Comments on Cecil’s columns, in order to keep the resource usage to the bare minimum. ---
**Author:** ![Irishman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/b487fb/32.png) [@Irishman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Irishman)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/6 "2002-06-05T01:19:41Z")
Yes whitetho, but you’re still linking to a _search_, which takes more system resources than linking to the search _results_, which is what everyone wants, anyway. (Well, I should say, the results are the important part. Can’t say as to whether anyone _wants_ them. ;)) Me, I would never have thought of linking the search, anyway, and would automatically have used the results. ---
**Author:** ![Saltire](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saltire/32/553_2.png) [@Saltire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saltire)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 9:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/7 "2002-06-05T21:06:02Z")
I hate to make demands of The Master, but wouldn’t it be nice if Cecil were to update the online column with some mention of the ‘ammunition belt theory’? It seems like a lot of people post that one after seeing the column, since it’s the one not described by Cecil. If he were to put it in there, telling everyone that no mention of the phrase seems to appear in print until the Sixties, them maybe we wouldn’t get posts on the column unless someone actually had an early cite of the idiom’s use. By the way, I really want to praise **Doubting Robert** here. It seems that most who start threads on this topic come in sure that they’ve found something new, and that their theory is correct. You, sir, stated that you’d found some things Cecil hadn’t mentioned, but (and here’s the good part) that “Unfortunately, no evidence to support any of the theories is given, nor is there any early usage citation.” Bravo for your scepticism! ---
**Author:** ![Doubting\_Robert](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/e495f1/32.png) [@Doubting\_Robert](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Doubting_Robert)\ **Post date:** [June 5, 2002, 11:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/8 "2002-06-05T23:05:03Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Saltire \* > \*\*By the way, I really want to praise **Doubting Robert** here. \ Bravo for your scepticism! \*\* Thank you, **Saltire**. Now you know how I picked my user name. ---
**Author:** ![Relaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Relaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Relaine)\ **Post date:** [June 13, 2002, 8:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/9 "2002-06-13T20:36:50Z")
I’ve been told that 9 yards of fabric goes into making a real Scottish Highland kilt. More modern ones seem to be made of 6 yards, but the older ones wrapped around the chest and the leftover end was draped over the shoulder. ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/10 "2002-06-14T04:28:07Z")
The great-kilt, or [bratach](http://www.havenonline.com/moas/northstar/vol2no3/tartans.htm), appears to have been estimated by contemporary writers at anywhere from four to eight yards. Bearing in mind that the bratach was pleated and belted **lengthwise** around the waist, nine yards seems unlikely for all but the largest of men ---
**Author:** ![Relaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Relaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Relaine)\ **Post date:** [June 14, 2002, 9:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/11 "2002-06-14T21:17:03Z")
BRATACH That’s a word I haven’t run across before, could you tell me where you found it? Is it a Scottish Gaelic word? I just called my husband and he thinks it means “flag” but he isn’t sure if it’s Irish or Scottish Gaelic or both. He didn’t have a Gaelic dictionary with him. I also wonder if, at some time in the past, the yard (in fabric terms) was not 36 inches but perhaps shorter. The maximum width of fabric in those days seemed to 25 or 30 inches, unlike wools today that are usually 54 inches wide. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/12 "2002-06-15T00:08:11Z")
> [@](#): > > The maximum width of fabric in those days seemed to 25 or 30 inches, unlike wools today that are usually 54 inches wide. Cite? ---
**Author:** ![Nametag](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/nametag/32/406_2.png) [@Nametag](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nametag)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2002, 12:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/13 "2002-06-15T00:33:15Z")
My apologies; that should have been _brat_, not bratach. The loom-width of antiquity does indeed appear to be around 30 inches; two such widths were sewn together for the likes of what ought to be called _a belted plaid_. There’s no point in talking about “how long a yard was” in 1250; fabric was measured in ells. The Scots ell was about 37 inches. ---
**Author:** ![Relaine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Relaine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Relaine)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2002, 1:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/14 "2002-06-17T13:58:44Z")
I was trying to think of the word “ell”. I mistakenly thought the ell was narrower. A good source for information on ancient weaving techniques is a book called “Women’s Work” which makes a good case for weaving to have been the second most important activity in the ancient world, after food production. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 25, 2002, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/15 "2002-06-25T22:28:32Z")
Saltire wrote: > [@](#): > > I hate to make demands of The Master, but wouldn’t it be nice if Cecil were to update the online column with some mention of the ‘ammunition belt theory’? [Funny you should ask!](http://www.straightdope.com/columns/001117.html) (Hint: look at the bottom few paragraphs in the above link.) My personal theory is that the original phrase was “hole nine yards” and referred to a golf course. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2002, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/16 "2002-06-29T01:51:35Z")
Nametag wrote: > [@](#): > > The Scots ell was about 37 inches. However, the English ell was 45 inches, and the Dutch ell was 27 inches. (My personal interest in the ell was piqued when, in Tolkien’s _The Two Towers_, Sam measured the length of their elvish rope to be 30 ells, which Frodo said should be long enough to reach to the bottom of a cliff that he’d estimated to be 18 fathoms high.) And don’t get me started on the German “elle”. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2002, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/17 "2002-06-30T23:26:03Z")
From the [British](http://www.quinion.com/words/articles/nineyards.htm) , further proof that we should take stories from our grandparents with a grain of salt. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2002, 3:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/112188/18 "2002-07-01T03:34:50Z")
So, “written citations from the 1960s”… What is the earliest known of these citations? And perhaps more importantly, is the author still alive? If so, the obvious expedient would be to ask him. Certainly, he might not remember where he got the phrase, but it’s worth a try. It occurs to me that the pattern of early citations might also give some indication as to the source. If the first few were confined to a small geographic area, and then expanded outward, we might suppose that the phrase had its origins in that region. On the other hand, if the first few instances are scattered across the nation or globe, that might be an indication that the expression had been around for a while, and had been travelling via word of mouth.