That brings up the question of “what does it take for a phrase to become a common idiom?” Consider the length of time between the production of the video for “Never gonna give you up” and the term rickrolling.
The 60s marks the maturation of the third of three major non-print forms of mass communication: movies, radio and TV. There were three movies just about the “Flying Tigers”* and who knows how many movies about WWII itself, as well as newsreels. In addition, the same M2 gun was used in a number of planes and in as a stand alone rifle, and that gun is still in use - so the phrase could have come out of the Korean war and been later attributed to the more popular war.
If it came from the nine shipyards, that phrase could have been used in a newsreel about bringing the shipyards up to speed. This, or newsreel footage about any one of the different military organizations using the M2 rifle may have been re-introduced to the public at large via an early 50s (1954, I think) TV series that was basically a overview of WWII using mostly newsreel footage.
I’m not saying that it is definitively the shipyards, or definitively the M2. But I don’t think a twenty year time lag between the events that shaped the phrase and the first (known) print occurance.
*Ok, two movies about the fighting unit and one that used the unit’s name in its script.
I think you’re doing fine, Wendell Wagner. The Wegner family seems interested in this little etymological mystery and I can’t see that you’re in danger of annoying anyone. Still, given that you’re experiencing some discomfort over this, it’s fine to bring in someone else.
I took the liberty of contacting Stephen Goranson (perhaps you’ve heard from him?), who discovered the Fall, 1962 sighting in “Man on the Thresh-hold” and who announced it on the American Dialect Society Listserv, and he confirmed that he had been trying to contact Prof. Wegner about the short story. Stephen’s initial contact elicited no response. He recently tried again with an e-mail or two to folks at Alma College; one of these e-mail messages made its way to Judith Wegner Arnold. It took your contacting Prof. Wegner (and his daughter) to get the ball rolling, though. Apparently, there’s some confusion about who’s been sending letters and e-mails, but at least the lines of communication are now open, thanks to your effort here.
Stephen is following up with Prof. Wegner and his daughter, so perhaps he’ll learn a bit more about how Prof. Wegner came to know the phrase. Incidentally, Stephen also first promoted Land’s testimony about “the whole nine [ship]yards” as a possible source for the phrase, so he’s quite interested in the reply you received from the Wegner family. I’m sure he’ll report on whatever he learns from his further communications with Prof. Wegner.
Stephen reminded me that I had left out from the list in post #23 a 1965 sighting of “the whole nine yards.” I’ll update the list some other time, but here’s the relevant data that’s missing.
I find these comments on the origin of the “9 yards” phrase most interesting. Having just been in a discussion about how it came about with several ex military folks, many of them believe it did originate with the length of aircraft machine gun belts. Some dating back to the WWI era’s biplanes.
An on line search of WWI and WWII USA aircraft armament specs and “rounds per gun” for both 30 and 50 caliber came up with everything but 9 yards. Data observed ran from 5.2 to 39 yards; none at 9.0 yards.
Has anybody considered that ‘yard’ may refer to money? I first heard the term used to mean $100, but apparently it more commonly refers to $1000. Then looking this up I see that in Europe the term ‘yard’ is used as slang for ‘milliard’, apparently 1 billion.
None of the early uses of “the whole nine yards” is part of a sentence in which someone gives the whole nine yards or takes the whole nine yards but rather one in which something is the whole nine yards.
I’ve also seen an “explanation” in which early football had nine yards instead of ten yards for a first down, so making a down was the whole nine yards.
The problem with both is that there’s not a particle of evidence to back them up. They’re both stories that people invent because putting a pattern on something seems better than ignorance even though it’s based in ignorance and adds more. That’s the whole nine yards of folk etymology.
MODERATOR ALERT: This thread has been idle for a year, until Bart B.'s comment (in post #63) reawakened it. That’s fine, no problem, I just want to alert folks – some of the people who made earlier comments may have forgot what they said, may not be around to reply, etc.
For what it’s worth, here’s an updated list showing newly found sightings (items 1 through 3) of “the whole nine yards.” Item 7, a new entry for this list, was discovered last summer. Sadly, these sightings don’t help to reveal what “nine yards” may have originally signified, but at least we can now push the phrase back in time a little.
Thanks for the updates, Tammi. Like so many others I’m engrossed by the hunt for the origins of this phrase and that interview with Ron Rhody who authored the 1957 article using the whole nine yards was absolutely fascinating.
If you search that book instead for whole nine, it does still go to page 206, but it highlight only the word “whole.” So, the optical character recognition for the phrase is a false hit.
When I first heard the phrase, I thought it was referring to a type of 3 masted ship that had 3 yardarms on each mast. But I can’t imagine anyone coming up with a phrase to describe something about a ship of this type in the 1960s.
The link below goes to the most recent thread on the SDMB about this issue. It contains updated information about the origin of this phrase. Please, please, please read all of it before you comment further in this thread. There’s no point in us discussing the matter without referring to the new information found in the link below:
I read the link with updates, Wendell—very interesting.
But, I have a question about the date distribution of the discovered printed examples of the phrase. There appears to be a couple of decade cluster of 6-yard and *9-yard *versions of the phrase before 1921; and a couple of decade cluster of the 9-yard version after 1956.
What could account for an obscure phrase popping back into popular usage after a 35 year layoff? Is the assumption that was still in verbal usage during that time, but just not put into print; rediscovered by a newer generation from older sources (e.g. their grandparents); or something else?
On page 552, it says: “Each baron, knight, or other commander in feudal times, had a recognized standard, which was distributed among his followers. The length of the standard varied according to the rank of the bearer. A king’s standard was from 8 to 9 yards in length; a duke’s, 7 yards; a marquis’s, 6 1/2 yards; an earl’s, 6 yards; a viscount’s, 5 1/2 yards, a baron’s, 5 yards; a banneret’s, 4 1/2 yards; and a knight’s, 4 yards.”
