# The whole nine yards **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [March 11, 2001, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521 "2001-03-11T05:54:43Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 13\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![RoseGryphn](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e9a140/32.png) [@RoseGryphn](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RoseGryphn)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2001, 5:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/1 "2001-03-11T05:54:43Z")
I understand that the origin of the phrase “The whole nine yards.” has been in dispute. I remember reading that it originated from the approximate amount of cloth in an authentic kilt. (Not the kind of newfangled kilt that Prince Charles sports from time to time.) I read this in a book on costuming a long time ago. Can anyone verify this? I know there are quite a few historical societies out there…please speak up! ---
**Author:** ![TubaDiva](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tubadiva/32/507_2.png) [@TubaDiva](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TubaDiva)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2001, 6:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/2 "2001-03-11T06:00:57Z")
Rose, this is in the wrong forum. Please go to the [Straight Dope Message Board Front Page](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/index.php) and read the forum descriptions over again. I’m moving this thread to “Comments on Cecil’s Columns” because this has been spoken to before. Please see Cecil’s column here: [What’s the origin of “the whole nine yards”?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a2_252.html) your humble TubaDiva Administrator ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 11, 2001, 6:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/3 "2001-03-11T06:57:24Z")
The whole nine yards question? Noooooooo… :eek: Some previous discussions on the subject: [The Whole Nine Yards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=50725) [The whole 9 yards…](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=29921) [The whole nine yards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=2905) [the whole nine yards](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1734) [yards, and nine of them …](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=1379) [The Whole Nine Yards Explanation](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=573) RoseGryphn, might I ask you to do us here at the SDMB a favor? You’ll probably find more information than you ever wanted to know in the threads above. If you have time to spare, go read them all, and if you have any more questions, come back here and post them. And Welcome to the Straight Dope! ---
**Author:** ![iampunha](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/74df32/32.png) [@iampunha](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iampunha)\ **Post date:** [March 13, 2001, 6:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/4 "2001-03-13T18:57:02Z")
A cursory search at [ask.com](http://ask.com) produced this interesting webpage, RoseGryphn: [http://www.cam.org/~jennyb/origins.html#yards](http://www.cam.org/~jennyb/origins.html#yards) Happy reading. ---
**Author:** ![samclem](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a9a28c/32.png) [@samclem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/samclem)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 12:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/5 "2001-03-14T00:21:13Z")
**Rose** , **iampunha’s** well-meaning research is just a rehash of all the unproven(and almost certainly in-correct) answers which can be gleaned from reading **Arnold’s** links or Cecil’s original column(with answers). The long and the short of it is that no one knows. Period. ---
**Author:** ![thewebsurfer](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/977dab/32.png) [@thewebsurfer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thewebsurfer)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/6 "2001-03-14T01:02:16Z")
Hi, I can’t believe someone British doesn’t know the answer to this question. I do, and it goes way back. In post-Industrial Revolution Britain a big problem arose. After beating the pants off their continental competition in the manufacture of cotton cloth by undercutting prices thanks to machine-manufacturing, tarriffs were raised across Europe to protect domestic producers. The Brit’s were left with a lot of unsold cloth, mills closed, the unemployed were left to starve and there was “civil unrest”. A British politician, Disraeli, stood before Parliment and proclaimed that if nine yards of cotton cloth could be sold to every peasant in China not only would the problem be solved, but fortunes made. The power and scope of the British Empire was on the rise in the 1860’s or so and to him, at least, this seemed possible. (Many businessmen have made the same mistake subsequently.) Of course, he was wrong. His detractors mocked him by saying something like “If only we could get the whole nine yards”. Kevin ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 2:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/7 "2001-03-14T02:01:37Z")
An intriguing explanation, thewebsurfer. And you know this how? We’re a skeptical bunch here at the SDMB. ---
**Author:** ![Clark\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c77e96/32.png) [@Clark\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Clark_K)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/8 "2001-03-14T05:27:34Z")
And how would Websurfer explain the century-long gap between the word’s origin and its first appearance in print? ---
**Author:** ![bwanasimba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/53a042/32.png) [@bwanasimba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bwanasimba)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 12:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/9 "2001-03-14T12:54:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Arnold Winkelried \* > \*\*An intriguing explanation, thewebsurfer. And you know this how? > We’re a skeptical bunch here at the SDMB. \*\* If Disraeli actually said this in Parliament, then it should be recorded in the Hansard for the year and month he actually said it (Hansard is the record of who said what to whom in Parliament). If his detractors actually replied as suggested at the dispatch box, then that should be recorded in Hansard too. I phoned the House of Lords to find out more (despite the comments being allegedly made in the Commons, the archives are maintained in the Lords). You can search the archives in the House of Lords which go back to 1823, so Disraeli’s comments in the 1860’s would also be there. According to the person I spoke to there, you can do this for free from 9:30 - 17:00 but with 24 hours’ notice. You can also photocopy the books for a small fee. So then, if **thewebsurfer** cares to narrow the dates a little, it may be worthwhile going there for a look. ---
**Author:** ![Arnold\_Winkelried](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Arnold\_Winkelried](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Arnold_Winkelried)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/10 "2001-03-14T15:16:21Z")
bwanasimba, now that’s what I call the true Straight Dope spirit! I imagine that you live in London? Unfortunately I am in California, USA, so it wouldn’t be feasible for me to pop on over to the House of Lords for an afternoon of research. If you don’t live in London, we will have to ask one of the Eurodopers. ---
**Author:** ![bwanasimba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/53a042/32.png) [@bwanasimba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bwanasimba)\ **Post date:** [March 14, 2001, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/11 "2001-03-14T17:40:32Z")
I don’t live in London, but I’m close enough for a train journey, although I’d need to take a day off work (any excuses for the wife and kids would be welcome at this point…). “Many hands make light work”, and it would be good if a couple of London based dopers could help out too. However, we won’t have a hope unless we narrow the dates that Disraeli was supposed to have said it. Any help here? In reply to the “why hasn’t it appeared in print then?” question, maybe we just haven’t looked in the right place yet (cf May 33rd thread). ---
**Author:** ![Rocket](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@Rocket](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rocket)\ **Post date:** [April 20, 2001, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/12 "2001-04-20T17:22:23Z")
I’ve done a little checking to try and narrow the dates. Here’s what I’ve found: Lancashire cotton industry employment 1831 31.9% of population 1841 22.4% of population English cotton textile exports decrease ~14% between 1836 and 1849. Disreali parlimentary activity 1842-1858. Exports increased from 1849-1866. 1860 Cobden Free Trade Treaty removed tarriffs. This data doesn’t do much narrowing, but it appears that it must have been between the mid-1840’s to about 1860 when this statement may have been made. Perhaps someone more familiar with the specific english history during this period could narrow it down some more. Unfortunately, I don’t live near London either, but I’d be willing to finance bwanasimba’s lunch and a couple of pints if he can find something on this, as it sounds like the most promising lead in quite some time. I’m still working on the theory that the phrase is a mnemonic device. ---
**Author:** ![bwanasimba](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/53a042/32.png) [@bwanasimba](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bwanasimba)\ **Post date:** [April 23, 2001, 11:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-nine-yards/57521/13 "2001-04-23T11:58:32Z")
Thanks for the date-narrowing **Rocket**. As you point out, we need to get some input from someone with specific knowledge of the period. Myself and Mrs. Simba are expecting another baby Simba in 3 or 4 days, so I may not get the chance to go out for a bit! 😉 However, having waited so long, a few more weeks shouldn’t hurt too much.