# "The whole thing is a goddamn meat parade. I don't want any part of it." **URL:** \ **Category:** Cafe Society\ **Created:** [February 23, 2009, 10:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118 "2009-02-23T22:54:49Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 11\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 12:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/21 "2009-02-24T12:56:36Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > Ah, but **Alessan** , GOOD performing is an art form – a \*\*different \*\* art than that of the writer/director/designer but still a creative endeavour. Thousands of performers go through the motions of singing/dancing/acting out a script competently but uninspiringly. Good performers don’t just perform, but _ **interpret** _ the music/script/choreography and the director’s instructions in such a manner that it more effectively reaches the audience. Maybe, but they’re still first and foremost entertainers, and they’re much more bearable if they remember this. Let history decide whether or not they are artists; whenever I hear an actor start referring to his work as “art”, I reach for my revolver. ---
**Author:** ![Eonwe](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/eonwe/32/240_2.png) [@Eonwe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Eonwe)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/22 "2009-02-24T13:16:29Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > I’m also not crazy about the definition of actors as “artists”. > > Directors and screenwriters can be artists. Costume and set deisgners, too. Actors, though? Actors are entertainers. They’re showpeople, performers, and their job is to perform before an audience - like at the Oscars. So are classical musicians not artists? Or anyone who performs someone else’s composition? I think there’s a blurred line between art and craft, but you’re not giving actors enough credit. Let me ask, why is a director an artist? Isn’t he or she just interpreting a screenplay that someone else wrote? And then relying on a cinematographer to actually capture the images? And isn’t a cinematographer just doing what the director asks, so he or she isn’t really an artist either? ---
**Author:** ![Nom\_de\_Plume](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/85f322/32.png) [@Nom\_de\_Plume](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Nom_de_Plume)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/23 "2009-02-24T13:42:59Z")
In the movie _In and Out_, Matt Dillon’s character, an actor, complains about the Oscars. He says how terrible it is to have to compete like dogs. When a reporter asks him why he’s attending, he answers, “Because I might WIN!!” ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/24 "2009-02-24T13:43:03Z")
Please don’t think I’m denigrating technicians and craftsmen, here. In many ways, I tend to respect them more than so-called artists. For one, they know that their job isn’t to “express themselves”, but rather to work alongside other people in order to produce something that others may enjoy. That said, I don’t think performers - be they actors or musicians - are primarily artists, although there is some art in what they do. Directors are artists because a script is only one element of the final film, and a director is responsible for all of them; cinematographers and editors are technicians, in the same way that structural engineers are technicians - it’s their job to make sure that someone else’s vision actually works. Most of all, I mistrust anyone who refers to him or herself as an artist - even those who actually \*are \*artists, like writers or painters. The more someone holds his work to be somehow sacred, the less chance it actually is. ---
**Author:** ![Lunar\_Saltlick](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/977dab/32.png) [@Lunar\_Saltlick](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lunar_Saltlick)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 1:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/25 "2009-02-24T13:43:05Z")
Do most actors even have a choice these days? I’m under the impression that contracts govern pretty much everything. Many writers dream of writing a critically-acclaimed best-seller and then snubbing Oprah, but the reality is, their contract with the publisher would almost certainly require them to fawn over Oprah (and every other sales-boosting talk-show host/interviewer/reviewer) as much as humanly possible. I imagine it’s the same in the flicks. When you sign on and they cough up $5M and maybe points, you agree to participate in nude hula hoop competitions if it’ll increase the box office. The Oscars are probably the least distressing piece of debasement actors go through to promote the film and make money back for the guys who hold the purse strings and decide who gets to be in the next flick. But who knows? Maybe I’m totally wrong. Probably some actors could say no and still work. Woody hasn’t had anything to do with the Oscars ever, even though his films often win awards. For most actors, directors, etc., I guess it’s just not worth the bother. ---
**Author:** ![Quercus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/7ab992/32.png) [@Quercus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Quercus)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/26 "2009-02-24T15:00:07Z")
The issue isn’t whether movie actors are artists, it’s whether creating a movie is a cooperative act. A street performer doesn’t need to care what any other street performers think of her (assuming there are no permit issues); she can make her art whenever and however she wants. But a movie actress can’t perform without a producer hiring her, a director working with her, other actresses and actors working with her, and a studio publicizing the movie. Now most of those people (especially the ones who fund the movie) think that accepting an Oscar is good publicity for the movie and will therefore help make them more money. So, it’s pretty clear that an actress that doesn’t accept Oscars (and do the other publicity stuff) won’t be the first choice of studios and producers, and therefore won’t have the opportunity to get parts that could win an Oscar to turn down. ---
**Author:** ![pepperlandgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/f17d59/32.png) [@pepperlandgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pepperlandgirl)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/27 "2009-02-24T15:34:25Z")
> [@Rich\_Mann](#): > > All this is to say that IMHO these awards do mean something. They mean that these films are pretty good, and if you want to see a good film, here’s a bunch of good choices. My favorite time of year is the February, because TCM plays “31 Days of Oscar.” I watch TCM all year, but the 31 Days of Oscar is the best. There are a few clunkers, but all in all, the films are funny, thoughtful, beautiful, and a real treat. Many of them still seem important and have really held up over the years. Even the ones that are older than my parents. Yeah, sometimes the message picture wins. Sometimes an actor gets recognized just because it’s time to recognize that dude. But I don’t like the hard line cynical approach that it’s a meat market. For one thing, I’m sure the members of the academy are in the industry because they love the industry, and not only do they want to make films, they want to enjoy films and watch films and study films. Yes, it’s great PR. Yes, they’re comparing actors trying to do different things which isn’t always fair. Yes, comedies generally get shafted. But it’s also a celebration. And there’s nothing wrong with celebrating the work they do. ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/28 "2009-02-24T15:41:03Z")
> [@Quercus](#): > > The issue isn’t whether movie actors are artists, it’s whether creating a movie is a cooperative act. A street performer doesn’t need to care what any other street performers think of her (assuming there are no permit issues); she can make her art whenever and however she wants. But a movie actress can’t perform without a producer hiring her, a director working with her, other actresses and actors working with her, and a studio publicizing the movie. > Now most of those people (especially the ones who fund the movie) think that accepting an Oscar is good publicity for the movie and will therefore help make them more money. > So, it’s pretty clear that an actress that doesn’t accept Oscars (and do the other publicity stuff) won’t be the first choice of studios and producers, and therefore won’t have the opportunity to get parts that could win an Oscar to turn down. Furthermore, no-one can give an Oscar-caliber performance without a good script and a good director, so by accepting the award, the actor is also showing his respect for his co-workers. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 3:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/29 "2009-02-24T15:56:47Z")
> [@Alessan](#): > > That said, I don’t think performers - be they actors or musicians - are primarily artists, although there is some art in what they do. Directors are artists because a script is only one element of the final film, and a director is responsible for all of them; cinematographers and editors are technicians, in the same way that structural engineers are technicians - it’s their job to make sure that someone else’s vision actually works. I don’t think I understand what you’re defining as being an “Artist.” I’ve never heard a description of “Artist” that meant “someone who has responsibility for the work of technicians.” That sounds more like a factory manager. An artist is someone who creates art. Actors create performance art; they aren’t merely reading lines, especially not the ones who get nominated for Oscars. You can say other people are involved too, but that applies to every job, including the director. ---
**Author:** ![Hypno-Toad](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/b2d939/32.png) [@Hypno-Toad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hypno-Toad)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 4:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/30 "2009-02-24T16:10:02Z")
It seems to me that the Oscars epitomize why people become actors. People who dream of being a movie star enough to enter the industry probably love the idea of going up the red carpet at the Oscars. ---
**Author:** ![Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/13edae/32.png) [@Stranger\_On\_A\_Train](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Stranger_On_A_Train)\ **Post date:** [February 24, 2009, 5:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118/31 "2009-02-24T17:13:10Z")
It doesn’t matter how technically adept or critically acclaimed you are; people still want recognition from their “peers”. To wit: [Martin Scorsese’s Next Film To Be Three Hours Of Begging For Oscar](http://www.theonion.com/content/news/martin_scorseses_next_film_to_be) The camera pans over the bloody corpses of REDFORD, LEVINSON, COSTNER, POLANSKI, EASTWOOD as the Rolling Stones ‘Gimme Shelter’ plays in the background. [indent][indent][indent][indent]SCORSESE (V.O.)[/indent][/indent][/indent][/indent] [indent]I’ve been making pictures for 40 years. For 40 years, I’ve been making pictures. And I’ve always been fascinated with the struggles a man must endure when people don’t appreciate him. People say I’m the best. I didn’t say it, they did. I just do my work. But for years they’ve been talking and you know it. You do. I deserve that award, is all I’m saying.[/indent] [indent][indent][indent][indent] [rising refrain] War, children, its just a shot away Its just a shot away War, children, its just a shot away Its just a shot away[/indent][/indent][/indent][/indent] Stranger [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-whole-thing-is-a-goddamn-meat-parade-i-dont-want-any-part-of-it/487118.md?page=1)