# The Wolf and The Rabbit **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 26, 2015, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992 "2015-03-26T00:20:29Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 9\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/21 "2015-03-26T02:20:56Z")
> [@XT](#): > > If that’s his only skill what else SHOULD he do? From Each According To His Ability To Each According To His Need, and all that…and the world NEEDS golf course workers, obviously. I’m unsure what the issue is, as I see this (not the from each according non-sense of course) as a feature, not a bug. The worker gets a job, which means he gets paid to do something useful. The golf course owner gets work done that needs to be done. They agree on a price for that labor when the worker accepts employment and the boss accepts the work. It’s an open agreement where the worker can basically work as long as he likes as long as his labor is what the boss wants (and as long as he’s not caught scrumping the bosses trophy wife). If the worker feels his labor is worth more he can take it elsewhere…perhaps to a competitors Golf course. If the boss doesn’t feel the workers labor is worth what he’s paying (or catches him scrumping his trophy wife) then he can fire the worker. I’d say this is pretty civilized on the ‘Brutality’ scale, over all. I seriously doubt if the wolves were in charge it would be this clean and orderly (though I can totally see the worker wolf trying to score with the alphas bitch when the alpha wasn’t watching…of course, there is that whole tearing out of the throat thingy which disturbs this picturesque crystals and unicorns Nature scene). I see his options as being more limited than you do. The next Golf course is not going to pay him any better or treat him any better. Indeed, his next job could be worse. > [@](#): > > The thing is, if said worker is not getting what he needs out of this bargain, then that’s when society sets some bar for socialism and socialistic type services to help him out. Where that bar is set depends on the country and it’s citizens, but every country that uses a Capitalist economic system has a bar somewhere, which tends to soften raw Capitalism and make it palatable to the citizens of the country it’s operating in. A lot of folks on this board don’t like where the US sets it’s bar, and I can respect that, but I think most of them understand that to HAVE a bar you have to have the Capitalism. Yes, we do need to set a limit and maybe, I’m not sure but maybe I would be a bad judge of that assessment and set the bar too far in favor of the poor. I agree with your overall sentiments but I’m a bit further to the left than you are, I think. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/22 "2015-03-26T02:22:32Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > Indeed, good answer, and since **XT** already did go Godwin 🙂 I can point out that abusing and twisting the evidence of evolution is how the wrong lesson about the wolf eating the rabbit was arrived at and used in Nazi Germany. (with a fox in this case: ) > > [https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player\_detailpage&v=l14WDZCnz-w#t=338](https://www.youtube.com/watch?feature=player_detailpage&v=l14WDZCnz-w#t=338) > > The link there goes to the way over the top short animated film _Education for Death: The Making of the Nazi (1943)_ directly to the rabbit and the fox lesson in the WW2 Animated Propaganda Film of Walt Disney. It was a very common way to teach the wrong lesson in Fascist German classrooms and in Nazi “educational films” > > I have seen documentaries (I think one was The World At War) showing clips of live action films with pseudo German scientists explaining that “lesson” too for German viewers of that era. So while Disney was off in a few items like any propaganda film does, that bit about the rabbit and the predator was indeed used as a stepping stone to teach the German people about why it was good to subjugate and even exterminate other people. > > As others pointed, your definition of ‘Brutality’ is artificial and arbitrary and basically applies only to humans and I should add: It is also a construction that history has shown that it leads to very bad results. Ah, thanks for the video, I am watching it now, it seems interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Trinopus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/2bfe46/32.png) [@Trinopus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Trinopus)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/23 "2015-03-26T02:36:15Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > . . . Nature doesn’t even exist. Unless you accept some form of super-natural, then by definition everything in the universe is natural. So your statement is simply that the universe is brutal. . . . The counterpart of natural is not super-natural, but, in this context, artificial. Some things, like Lawrencium or non-virtual Higgs Bosons, do not exist in nature. It’s fair to discuss nature, at least in reasonably broad terms. Tribal people living in Neolithic epochs were “closer to nature” than we are with our cars and internet. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/24 "2015-03-26T02:36:40Z")
[QUOTE=Robert163] I see his options as being more limited than you do. The next Golf course is not going to pay him any better or treat him any better. Indeed, his next job could be worse. [/QUOTE] No, I see his options as being limited to his skill set. You said his only skills are working on a golf course, so that rather limits his ability to market himself outside of a circle of other golf courses. His labor is basically worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, modified by societies artificial lower bar in the form of minimum wage. So, there are limits to how low, pay wise, his next job could be. Work wise, well, that’s up to this worker…again, he’s free to take his labor elsewhere and try and get a better job with better pay or better benefits or maybe a less watchful boss with a hotter trophy wife. I’m not seeing any of this as particularly brutal, to be honest, which was your original position (of course, the OP was about wolves and rabbits and nature and stuff, so we’ve kind of drifted far afield, but I suspect this is what you really wanted to talk about so unless you say it’s a hijack I’ll go with this). > [@](#): > > Yes, we do need to set a limit and maybe, I’m not sure but maybe I would be a bad judge of that assessment and set the bar too far in favor of the poor. I agree with your overall sentiments but I’m a bit further to the left than you are, I think. And you’ll be in good company being left of me not only in this thread but on this board. You should get along with most of the posters here like a house on fire heating a veggy pizza with extra tofu! 😉 Where the bar is set is often an interesting debate, and obviously it changes a lot from country to country and society to society. Certainly there is a lot to be said for where the various European countries set their bar (it’s subtly different from country to country btw), though there are down sides as well as upsides. Ask a lot of the immigrant populations, especially the younger ones in several model European societies whether they are happy with the status quo and whether they would like the bar set where it is or would like a job instead. Conversely, ask hispanics or blacks in the US whether our own bar is working out well for them, or ask the average Japanese, especially young ones how things are going there…the grass is always greener where ever the rabbits are having their population controlled by those damned wolves. ---
**Author:** ![Robert163](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/4af34b/32.png) [@Robert163](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Robert163)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 2:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/25 "2015-03-26T02:46:12Z")
> [@XT](#): > > No, I see his options as being limited to his skill set. You said his only skills are working on a golf course, so that rather limits his ability to market himself outside of a circle of other golf courses. His labor is basically worth exactly what someone is willing to pay for it, modified by societies artificial lower bar in the form of minimum wage. So, there are limits to how low, pay wise, his next job could be. Work wise, well, that’s up to this worker…again, he’s free to take his labor elsewhere and try and get a better job with better pay or better benefits or maybe a less watchful boss with a hotter trophy wife. > > I’m not seeing any of this as particularly brutal, to be honest, which was your original position (of course, the OP was about wolves and rabbits and nature and stuff, so we’ve kind of drifted far afield, but I suspect this is what you really wanted to talk about so unless you say it’s a hijack I’ll go with this). > > And you’ll be in good company being left of me not only in this thread but on this board. You should get along with most of the posters here like a house on fire heating a veggy pizza with extra tofu! 😉 > > Where the bar is set is often an interesting debate, and obviously it changes a lot from country to country and society to society. Certainly there is a lot to be said for where the various European countries set their bar (it’s subtly different from country to country btw), though there are down sides as well as upsides. Ask a lot of the immigrant populations, especially the younger ones in several model European societies whether they are happy with the status quo and whether they would like the bar set where it is or would like a job instead. Conversely, ask hispanics or blacks in the US whether our own bar is working out well for them, or ask the average Japanese, especially young ones how things are going there…the grass is always greener where ever the rabbits are having their population controlled by those damned wolves. Ok well good comments, thanks a lot. If you think a person in the USA needs to better his job skills, what are his options? If his parents can’t afford to pay for college. A huge student loan without even the gaurentee of a job. Look at how many Millennials are complaining about this exact situation. What about the person with a family that never got to go to college or didn’t finish college but now wants to improve themself. They have a family now and can’t take the time off from work to go back to school. ---
**Author:** ![XT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xt/32/456_2.png) [@XT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/XT)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:31am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/26 "2015-03-26T03:31:31Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > Ok well good comments, thanks a lot. If you think a person in the USA needs to better his job skills, what are his options? If his parents can’t afford to pay for college. A huge student loan without even the gaurentee of a job. Look at how many Millennials are complaining about this exact situation. What about the person with a family that never got to go to college or didn’t finish college but now wants to improve themself. They have a family now and can’t take the time off from work to go back to school. This is a totally different question than what I was answering. You keep shifting the playing field in here. The basic answer though is everyone has options, even if they are limited. I worked on a golf course when I was a kid, and then I did other things. What your theoretical worker with only skills to work on a Golf course could or would do is going to be highly variable and dependent on so many factors that it’s not worth going into them all. Bottom line is that if said worker doesn’t like his job he has at least two options at a minimum…continue to work, or stop working. So, there is a choice there. Neither might be GOOD choices, but there is a choice. As a society, we have decided that there is a bar below which we are uncomfortable with allowing. So, said golf course worker will be paid a minimum wage. He will pay taxes, but that also entitles him to things like Social Security, assuming he picks choice A and continues to work. In some states he will be entitled to other benefits, but they will vary (again, it’s about choice…you are free to move, but your decision will be leavened by reality, so you might have the CHOICE to move but not the means, or you might really want to move to Hollywood but simply can’t). I’m not sure where you are going with this, or what it is you want to ‘debate’ here anymore. If you want to debate where the bar is set in the US, then you should lay that out as a discussion. If you want to discuss what people’s choices are then it’s going to be highly dependent on a bunch of factors such as where you are talking about, what the skills and motivations of the person in question are, what race or even religion they are…just a myriad of variables. If you want to talk about wolves and rabbits then we should stick to that, or if you want to talk about human nature then focus on that. Personally, I want to talk about eating this pizza I have in front of me, so I’ll engage with that for now and let someone else talk for a while. This is the most I’ve posted in years and now I’m hungry. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 3:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/27 "2015-03-26T03:54:40Z")
[Brutality of the strong over the weak.](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=zWm5veYZYEw) ---
**Author:** ![puddleglum](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puddleglum/32/137_2.png) [@puddleglum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puddleglum)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 4:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/28 "2015-03-26T16:12:55Z")
Capitalism is about cooperation. Take the golf course example. If I want to play golf, I need a golf course architect, a maker of construction equipment, construction workers, landscaping equipment manufacturers, landscaping maintenance men, starters, and pro shop workers all working together just so I can have a couple hours of pleasant recreation. Despite the fact that none of these people know me or care about my happiness, capitalism has gotten them all together to work for my happiness. That is not brutality, but the opposite. ---
**Author:** ![TommyzNR](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/edb3f5/32.png) [@TommyzNR](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TommyzNR)\ **Post date:** [March 26, 2015, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992/29 "2015-03-26T20:42:35Z")
> [@Robert163](#): > > … > > Of course a worker can exploit his boss. But if his only Job skill is being a caddy or a groundskeeper at a Golf course, where else is he supposed to get a better job? If this is a serious question then here is a possible path forward… • Start at the golf course, work a couple of seasons, be less of a screw off than those around you. Do stuff that will get you raises from time to time. • Start applying for your next job in landscape maintenance in the spring before the grass starts turning green. Don’t be afraid to take a pay cut to move on but don’t be surprised when you actually get a nice little bump in pay. • Start taking night classes at the local community college. Don’t flip out when your boss and coworkers ridicule you for trying to better yourself…. • Get fired when your immediate supervisor thought it would be fun to take the crew to the bar for the last hour of the day and have everyone put that time on timesheets…lesson learned • Start over at the next landscape maintenance place, you have experience they will like, ……don’t get sucked in next time someone decides to do something stupid …….take their job when they get fired…not following the crowd can get you a promotion and raise (it did for me, I became a supervisor) • Start moving into the landscape construction side of the business, don’t be afraid to tell your boss you would like to do this and offer to take on really small opportunities when they come up. • Accept a promotion to the landscape labor side of the business when the opportunity arrives • Continue with classes etc. This is where your opportunities start becoming endless. I went on to school with low interest loans because of my low income and became an engineer. My best friend who followed a very similar path without the college degree became owner of his own landscaping business. The difference was he took classes in management, business, and landscaping trades and became certified in areas that mattered to him, his employer and future customers. I took classes that made my college career shorter. Thank you for picking golf coarse worker as your example of someone in a dead end job 🙂 [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-wolf-and-the-rabbit/715992.md?page=1)