# The women's equivalent of the "nice guy" problem? **URL:** \ **Category:** In My Humble Opinion\ **Created:** [November 12, 2015, 7:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399 "2015-11-12T19:33:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Octarine](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/o/22d042/32.png) [@Octarine](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Octarine)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/21 "2015-11-12T21:18:43Z")
Find someone who shares similar interests/values with you, is easy to talk to, and who you enjoy spending time with. Ask them on a date. If rejected, don’t take it personally and repeat with someone else. For men or women, I suspect that has a much higher success rate that looking at either gender like a rubik cube and trying to discover that One Weird Trick that will solve all your romantic woes. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/22 "2015-11-12T21:20:16Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > This is sexist double-standard (unless you also talk about men who give sex away too easily). No it isnt. Many more men are looking for easy sex than women. ---
**Author:** ![Drunky\_Smurf](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/drunky_smurf/32/449_2.png) [@Drunky\_Smurf](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Drunky_Smurf)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/23 "2015-11-12T21:23:26Z")
> [@PastTense](#): > > This is sexist double-standard (unless you also talk about men who give sex away too easily). As a man I volunteer to give sex away too easily to balance the equation. ---
**Author:** ![PookahMacPhellimey](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pookahmacphellimey/32/3175_2.png) [@PookahMacPhellimey](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PookahMacPhellimey)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/24 "2015-11-12T21:24:44Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > A woman who gives away sex too easily and a man who gives away compliments, resources or commitment too easily are both seen as easily exploitable. Christ, you’re making it seem as if sex is something we women really really hate, but sometimes have to reluctantly agree to engage in to snare a male. FYI when I sleep with a man, I do it because I enjoy it, not as some kind of “reward” for hanging out with me. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/ecc23a/32.png) [@The\_wind\_of\_my\_soul](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_wind_of_my_soul)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/25 "2015-11-12T21:28:33Z")
The equivalent would be women who talk to men they’re attracted to the same way they talk to anyone else. In other words, women who don’t know how to flirt or otherwise indicate interest in a guy. I’ve seen women who have good looks, good personality, and good overall station in life go single for long periods of time for this very reason. Even when a woman plays hard-to-get, she typically gives off some sort of signal indicating to the man to keep trying. If a woman doesn’t know how to give off (a) come hither signals, (b) pick me over the other women (/I pick you over the other men) signals, and © I’m willing to take things further signals, then she often ends up in the equivalent of nice guy territory. Of course, this is assuming heterosexuality. Haven’t observed enough gay relationships to pontificate about that. ---
**Author:** ![Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/848f3c/32.png) [@Fuzzy\_Dunlop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fuzzy_Dunlop)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/26 "2015-11-12T21:29:59Z")
> [@Wesley\_Clark](#): > > Your op is a good example, some women confuse what they want with what men want, and now high status and well off women are having trouble dating for many problems because they assumed what they want is what men want. There’s a big difference between highly successful women and the nice (boring) guy problem. Namely, every highly successful woman I’ve known did it because she was ambitious and wanted to be successful. I’ve never met one who thought it would be a great way to land a man. On the other hand, I’ve met PhDs and medical doctors who were frustrated that their success actually made it more difficult to date. Frustration is an understandable reaction to your achievements being a turn off, but I see it as a useful way to filter out bad potential mates. Who would want to date someone that cripplingly insecure? Anyway, my point is ‘nice’ guys think if they’re nice long enough they’re owed sex \*because \*they’re ‘nice’. Successful women just want to date and happen to have been very successful. ---
**Author:** ![MandaJo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ac91a4/32.png) [@MandaJo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MandaJo)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/27 "2015-11-12T21:35:12Z")
I think the issue is that “Nice guys” think 1) that they are nice and that 2) that’s the reason they can’t date–they 1) give themselves too much credit for a virtue they don’t actually have and 2) do this weird humble-brag where they “blame” that virture for their unhappiness so that they can see their unhappiness as a sort of divine injustice". To me, the female version of this is “My intelligence/confidence scares off men”. None of the women I’ve known who really nursed this issue were particularly brilliant/assertive, and I’ve known plenty of intelligent and/or confident women who were successful with men. Related, but not about romance, is the 'I am so, so dedicated to others and other’s problems that I neglect myself". Everyone I know who help this as their secret pride was actually amazingly self-absorbed. ---
**Author:** ![msmith537](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/d9b06d/32.png) [@msmith537](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/msmith537)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/28 "2015-11-12T21:56:15Z")
You guys got it backwards. Or maybe it’s actually a bit more complex…or simple. If you’re a nice guy and look like Brad Pitt or Channing Tatum, I’m pretty sure you’re going to get with a lot of girls unless you are so shy they can’t even talk to you. If you are a nice guy who isn’t that attractive, then women will just be like "yeah…he’s a nice guy [but I’m not interested in fucking him]. And some guys, women just want to fuck because of their looks, wealth, whatever. They can afford to act like jerks because they can get by on their looks. Also, women like men who are assertive and project confidence, leadership and success. Really most people do. What does that mean exactly? How at ease are you striking up a random conversation with a stranger in a bar? Not even to have sex. I mean just going to a bar by yourself and just chatting with some random person about random shit? A lot of people can’t. An average guy who can go out and talk to women and attract a non-zero percentage of them will always do better than anyone who talks to zero women and blames it on being “too nice”. ---
**Author:** ![Velocity](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/velocity/32/18006_2.png) [@Velocity](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Velocity)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/29 "2015-11-12T21:57:15Z")
> [@madmonk28](#): > > Exactly, it’s not being a nice guy that’s the problem it’s having the Nice Guy Syndrome whereby you think that the world owes you a date for some reason. What would be a woman’s version of the Nice Guy Syndrome? I think\*\* Manda Jo \*\*may have provided an answer to that: > [@MandaJo](#): > > To me, the female version of this is “My intelligence/confidence scares off men”. None of the women I’ve known who really nursed this issue were particularly brilliant/assertive, and I’ve known plenty of intelligent and/or confident women who were successful with men. ---
**Author:** ![DummyGladHands](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/49beb7/32.png) [@DummyGladHands](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DummyGladHands)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 9:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/30 "2015-11-12T21:58:18Z")
I know this will sound awful, but some women just have no clue how to “get a guy.” How to approach them, how to suggest going out, IOW, how to “hit” on them. I have a friend that desperately wants hubby, kids and white picket fence but will not take the lead with guys, and ends up every time she finds a date on a dating site, getting quickly “friend zoned.” Same thing happens when her friend fix her up. She’s a nice girl, but clueless. ---
**Author:** ![even\_sven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/dfb087/32.png) [@even\_sven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/even_sven)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/31 "2015-11-12T22:02:31Z")
The phenomenon on both sides is about being “too available.” It’s about people who think if they just give enough-- time, sex, gifts, emotional intimacy-- that they can make the romance happen, even when the romance just isn’t there. But that’s just part of it. The next part is when that kicks off a cycle of bitterness and resentment; which leads to trying even harder, which causes more bitterness. Both genders do it, but I think women get better advice on how to get out of it. ---
**Author:** ![P-man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/p-man/32/3606_2.png) [@P-man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/P-man)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/32 "2015-11-12T22:12:46Z")
When I was single I was often told how nice I was, and how I’d never have a problem getting dates. But I was socially awkward and couldn’t read signals. I ever thought I was entitled to anything. It was more of a “what’s wrong with me?” thing. Fortunately, I met someone who was ready to make the first move. It was pure luck; I still have no idea when someone is interested. If anyone is, too bad. I found somebody despite being a complete doofus when it comes to romance. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/33 "2015-11-12T22:30:24Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > I think the most successful people in dating / relationships are those who understand that men and women think very differently. Those who think men and women think very similarly, often fail. Based on? ---
**Author:** ![SaharaTea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/e9a140/32.png) [@SaharaTea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SaharaTea)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/34 "2015-11-12T22:33:48Z")
> [@DummyGladHands](#): > > I know this will sound awful, but some women just have no clue how to “get a guy.” How to approach them, how to suggest going out, IOW, how to “hit” on them. > > I have a friend that desperately wants hubby, kids and white picket fence but will not take the lead with guys, and ends up every time she finds a date on a dating site, getting quickly “friend zoned.” Same thing happens when her friend fix her up. She’s a nice girl, but clueless. I’m not sure what you mean by not taking the lead. A woman who is reasonably attractive will have guys hitting on her whether she wants it or not. Is she very shy or difficult to talk to? Perhaps she doesn’t know how to flirt? ---
**Author:** ![SmellMyWort](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/ea5d25/32.png) [@SmellMyWort](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/SmellMyWort)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 10:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/35 "2015-11-12T22:39:54Z")
> [@msmith537](#): > > You guys got it backwards. Or maybe it’s actually a bit more complex…or simple. > > If you’re a nice guy and look like Brad Pitt or Channing Tatum, I’m pretty sure you’re going to get with a lot of girls unless you are so shy they can’t even talk to you. > > If you are a nice guy who isn’t that attractive, then women will just be like "yeah…he’s a nice guy [but I’m not interested in fucking him]. > > And some guys, women just want to fuck because of their looks, wealth, whatever. They can afford to act like jerks because they can get by on their looks. > Also, women like men who are assertive and project confidence, leadership and success. Really most people do. What does that mean exactly? How at ease are you striking up a random conversation with a stranger in a bar? Not even to have sex. I mean just going to a bar by yourself and just chatting with some random person about random shit? A lot of people can’t. > > An average guy who can go out and talk to women and attract a non-zero percentage of them will always do better than anyone who talks to zero women and blames it on being “too nice”. I agree that looks play a role, as does personality. I kind of think of them all as scales. A guy who isn’t nice might be able to do OK, at least for a few dates (enough to get what he wants) if he’s got good looks and personality. But even a “10” nice guy with average looks isn’t going to get past a date or two if his personality stinks. If he’s boring, or needy, or self-absorbed, or a little condescending he is going to get the “You’re a nice guy, but…” speech. He still thinks he’s a nice guy (not abusive and does things to make her happy) and wonders why women don’t like nice guys like him. I think the female equivalent is going to have similar personality issues: needy, “daddy issues,” drama queen, that sort of thing. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/36 "2015-11-12T23:26:03Z")
> [@msmith](#): > > If you’re a nice guy and look like Brad Pitt or Channing Tatum, I’m pretty sure you’re going to get with a lot of girls unless you are so shy they can’t even talk to you. > > If you are a nice guy who isn’t that attractive, then women will just be like "yeah…he’s a nice guy [but I’m not interested in fucking him]. > > And some guys, women just want to fuck because of their looks, wealth, whatever. They can afford to act like jerks because they can get by on their looks. I can attest to the truth of this. Back when I was in college I was in really good shape. I hit the gym 5 times a week, ran about 25 miles a week, and could bench-press more than my own body weight. From the neck down, I looked like Brad Pitt from Fight Club. I got laid a _ridiculous_ amount my first year in college. I know everyone gets laid in college, but I _really_ got laid in college. And not just with college girls, either. I’d go out on the town and meet professional women in their 20s and early 30s and I was successful with them too. Thing was, at the time, I was also beginning to manifest symptoms of bipolar disorder. I was panicky, anxious, depressive, paranoid, occasionally hysterical. I was a total fucking mess, and thoroughly unpleasant to be around. I was _horrible_ to some of these women and even now, seventeen years later, I still feel terribly guilty about some of the things I said. Didn’t make a scrap of difference. Still got laid like a fucking champion. In my second year I started seeking treatment and it was very successful. My personality changed completely. I was much calmer, much more relaxed, much friendlier, and much _nicer_. I also stopped going to the gym. Spoiler alert: I found it much, much harder to acquire female attention. I’m in the slightly unusual position of having quite literally swapped a good body for a good personality. While I’m much happier, and wouldn’t go back to what I nostalgically refer to as “the bad old days” for anything, I do occasionally miss the ease with which I used to be able to meet girls. Men: If you’re having trouble picking up women, hit the gym. Hit it hard, hit it often. Eat lots of protein. Build muscle. Lose body fat. It helps more than anything. It certainly helps a lot more than being nice. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/37 "2015-11-12T23:30:26Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > To me, the female version of this is “My intelligence/confidence scares off men”. None of the women I’ve known who really nursed this issue were particularly brilliant/assertive, and I’ve known plenty of intelligent and/or confident women who were successful with men. I can buy this. I’ve never heard an intelligent man say he wants a dumber woman. And the like marrying like phenomenon seems to indicate that this no longer happens. 30 or 40 years ago, it might have happened a bit more. I’d also like to see evidence that the supposed difficulty of high powered women finding partners exists. People don’t become CEOs at 25 - there is usually plenty of time to get attached before this. I don’t recall reading of high powered Silicon Valley women being single - though many don’t mention husbands much unless both partners are CEOs. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 11:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/38 "2015-11-12T23:36:16Z")
Lots of good ideas in this thread, especially about how “Nice Guys” are not really mostly that. This idea is a bit different: > [@msmith537](#): > > … I think the phenomenon the OP is looking for is “just one of the guys” or “like a sister”. > > That is to say, the otherwise attractive girl who wears the football jersey and watches the game and drinks beer (or whatever the equivalent for your particular subculture) runs the risk of turning into “just one of the guys” where they “would never hook up with her…she’s like a sister!” I agree with **msmith537** ’s contention. That’s the female equivalent of the male “friend zone”. But the first thought that came to mind was all the beer, car, & snack ads that air on sporting shows where in addition to the perfectly ethnically mixed group of guy friends there’s always a good looking gal in a team jersey enjoying the game just like the guys. The idea that the beer marketers are indirectly teaching women how to get trapped in the friend zone struck me funny. No wonder they struggle to get women to drink beer in any volume. ---
**Author:** ![Green\_Bean](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/green_bean/32/1760_2.png) [@Green\_Bean](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Green_Bean)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2015, 11:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/39 "2015-11-12T23:47:02Z")
> [@MandaJo](#): > > To me, the female version of this is “My intelligence/confidence scares off men”. None of the women I’ve known who really nursed this issue were particularly brilliant/assertive, and I’ve known plenty of intelligent and/or confident women who were successful with men. Yeah, this is definitely a similar phenomenon. A lot of the same women go around pronouncing themselves as “strong,” like that’s somehow so unusual that it’s worth remarking on. Baloney. Most women are strong. It’s hardly unusual. (as are most men - you kind of have to be to get through all the stuff life throws at you.) Men aren’t necessarily put off by strong women, but they’re probably put off by women who go around saying “I AM A STRONG WOMAN!” Then again, so am I. I get turned off in terms of befriending another woman if she pulls that crap. So you’re strong? What am I, a weakling? Jesus, STFU. > [@CT\_Damsel](#): > > In my experience independence in a woman is a turn off for men. > I think most men want a woman who is delicate, who needs jars opened and bugs killed. Oh, bullshit. SOME men like delicate little flowers, and I think many men like playing the big strong manly man from time to time, but what normal man wants to be bothered every time a jar needs to be opened? ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2015, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399/40 "2015-11-13T00:12:06Z")
> [@P-man](#): > > When I was single I was often told how nice I was, and how I’d never have a problem getting dates. But I was socially awkward and couldn’t read signals. I ever thought I was entitled to anything. It was more of a “what’s wrong with me?” thing. Fortunately, I met someone who was ready to make the first move. It was pure luck; I still have no idea when someone is interested. If anyone is, too bad. I found somebody despite being a complete doofus when it comes to romance. I can’t read signals either. But sometimes you can ask a girl out even if you aren’t 100% sure she is interested. I’ve gone out with women who it turns out had boyfriends in other places. Only went out once, but that’s okay. I’m sure she wasn’t acting available, but that’s okay also. We had a good time, and she isn’t one who got away since it didn’t end unresolved. I’m not sure it is nice / not nice but being willing to face rejection versus not being willing. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-womens-equivalent-of-the-nice-guy-problem/737399.md?page=3)