This doesn’t occur quite so baldly, but a number of couples I knew broke up because when push came to shove, the guy didn’t want his promising career to have to contend with his SO’s promising career.
I don’t have the definitive answer to the OP, but as a single middle age guy who has other single middle-age guys as friends, it’s their anger that kills it. The angry women feel entitled to their anger, empowered by it, and expect “good” men to totally accept that Marilyn Monroe quote:" I’m selfish, impatient and a little insecure. I make mistakes, I am out of control and at times hard to handle.** But if you can’t handle me at my worst, then you sure as hell don’t deserve me at my best**."
It’s not about looks. Guys with money and the inclination can pull younger, hotter women (though that disqualifies them from being “good” men, instead of displaying any deficiency in the angry mature women). After a certain age, kindness is a woman’s best selling point. And those of us with neither the money nor the inclination for young hotties are going around like Diogenes with lamps looking for it. But just like the “nice” guys who feel entitled to drop-dead georgeous women, a lot of middle class divorced women feel entitled to that fit, silver-haired CEO straight out of the Lifetime Network movies.
From what I’ve seen, most “nice guys” seem to define themselves by things they don’t do: I don’t do things like smoke and drink and gamble and take drugs and crash cars, so I must be a desirable property and therefore deserve a woman except women only want “bad boys” so it’s not fair. The thing is, you need more than not doing bad stuff to be an actual nice guy, you need some positive qualities in your own right, whatever they are; they might even make the odd transgression forgivable. Long story short, if you want a girlfriend, be the sort of guy a girl would like as a boyfriend, and that doesn’t just mean passive acquiescence.
If we can use seduction community lingo, and assume that a “nice guy” is what they would call a guy with no “game,” I’ve heard it said that a guy with no game is the equivalent of a fat girl. That is, they’re both lacking in the one thing that’s attractive to the opposite sex that they have the power do to something about, but rather than do something about it, they complain that people aren’t attracted to them the way they are.
This totally describes me to a T growing up. Just sit quietly in your seat, wait your turn, be peaceful and quiet, and one day your fairy godmother will appear and grant all your wishes. What’s interesting is that mothers seem hard-wired to encourage this mindset in their sons.
[quote=“Voyager, post:40, topic:737399”]
I can’t read signals either. But sometimes you can ask a girl out even if you aren’t 100% sure she is interested. I’ve gone out with women who it turns out had boyfriends in other places. Only went out once, but that’s okay. I’m sure she wasn’t acting available, but that’s okay also. We had a good time, and she isn’t one who got away since it didn’t end unresolved.
I’m not sure it is nice / not nice but being willing to face rejection versus not being willing.[/QUOTEI
I got really tired of the rejections, which is what happened 3 quarters or so of the time. I was an employed, well-built guy who spent weekends alone. I actually had plenty of female friends (and sill do). I don’t blame the women who rejected me; it wasn’t their fault they didn’t see me as datable. I got to the point where I gave up because I wasn’t willing to face it anymore. Then she found me, and we’ve been together 20 years. Pure dumb luck on my part.
I’d actually guess who you were when manic was more attractive, and not because you were unpleasant to be around. But because there’s this sort of energy that comes across to others as a type of confidence–and, of course, that confidence can be attractive.
One of the symptoms of mania is an increase in risk taking behaviors–even though that seems paradoxical since another symptom is anxiety. This has long been argued in psychological circles as being a part of mating in many species. It’s often said this is why male teens will do stupid things to attract women.
In other words, I’m not sure that being nice might not have made things even better, as long as you also still had the overconfidence and risk taking. My point is that you didn’t just get nicer or stop exercising when you dealt with your bipolar disorder. Other things changed, too, so you really don’t know which change caused the change.
I only say something because this is the type of logic I used to see all the time when I was younger and used PUA message boards. Heck, I even tried on the “jerk” persona until I realized I could never be that way.
Heck, every single “ladies man” I knew in school was a really nice guy–save maybe one. And he was at least nice when he liked you.
Nope. Women don’t have to do anything. They literally just have to stand there and men will approach. The only exception I can think of is if she is much less attractive than all men, which is rare/non-existent. Women constantly complain about how much (ugly) men bother them in daily life.
I agree with the OP’s career woman for the reasons stated. They will still attract men, but the career ambition itself does not add to the attraction the way it would if they were men attempting to attract women.
I would add: Women who are overly eager to use sex, but are disappointed to not land a fulfilling relationship. Guys wonder why being nice doesn’t get them a girlfriend. Women wonder why generous blowjobs don’t land them marriage proposals. In both cases, it’s due to the recipients being free to accept the niceties without feeling or needing to feel obligated to do anything substantial in return.
Hard to explain. She prides herself on her wonderful personality–she gets along with everyone, is always ready to help, volunteers to help even when not asked–she really is a nice person.
But yeah, no idea how to flirt-she just goes in whole hog with all her genuiness (word?) from the get go, holding nothing back, giving it all up (not sexually) and boom, finding herself friend-zoned; guys who date her once end up calling her to “hang out” but no more dates. And she’s attractive, but hides her body under huge unattractive clothes, and is just all natural–hair, makeup etc… As a sidebar, I have never ever known a woman with NO idea how to dress for anything as this woman.
Has no one here never met a woman with no clue how to “get” a man? I suspect that she eventually will, but she’s over 30 now and nothing’s happening. Not that that’s any kind of cut-off point of course, but all of the white picket fence crap is her biggest dream and wildest home. I hope the best for her, I really do.
I can accept the quote. You just need to be Marilyn Monroe at your best 
Oh, I’ve been trying to articulate this one for ages. That nails it. Great!
It’s lame to even talk about the so-called “women don’t like nice guys” phenomenon. “Nice” has become a weak, ambiguous term. Does it mean “acceptable”, “good”, “polite”, “non-aggressive”, “agreeable”, “sensitive” etc. It seems like guys are projecting qualities to the word. I find them to be entitled, frustrated dudes who are therefore just acting “nice” because they can’t express or come to terms with their physical needs.
Let’s take the opposite: if you are not a nice man, you are a MEAN man, and only MEAN men get women? Huh? This trope may work for a very small percentage of dependent women in abusive or controlling relationships, but not for society at large.
Besides, a mean guy may act mean in public, like say, Rush Limbaugh, but could be a lovable teddy bear at home. How would you, Mr. Frustrated Single Guy, know?
Sorry, but the vast majority of women do not want to be around MEAN men. All humans, unless messed up in the head, prefer to be around generous, compassionate, sympathetic people.
Which basically translates to: Whoever cares least about the relationship holds all the power.
Yes. Power over a shitty relationship. “Better to reign in Hell,” and all that I guess.
I was going to say that if you are an actor, and quite successful, you still get rejected over 90% of the time, but the acceptance makes up for it. But you seem to be an excellent example of that point.
That’s different. Conflicting goals can lead to problems. Not even just two careers - a spouse might want more of a person who wants to give it all to a career. But the ability to have a career clearly isn’t a deal breaker in these cases.
It is important to be on the same page when it comes to career and home life expectations; I totally agree.
In the cases I mentioned, all parties had invested a good deal in their education and had pretty bright career prospects. The women’s expectation was that both careers would carry equal weight in terms of the couple’s decisionmaking. The men’s expectation was that his career would be the driver. (To be very clear, these examples are a minority of the couples that I knew back in college.) So on the one hand, the guys clearly weren’t afraid of dating a woman of equal or greater intelligence. But on the other hand, this subset of guys wasn’t interested in marrying someone whose career might distract from his own. I don’t admire that, particularly if the reveal comes very late in the relationship.
In contrast, another friend, when asked about his family moving, replied that his wife had had a fantastic job offer that she was going to accept. “It’s only fair,” he said, “She moved for my job last time. It’s my turn now.”
This is just one anecdote, but it is my only direct experience with the phenomena.
There was a girl (19 or 20) in my Atmospheric Chemistry class - a bit nerdy and shy, but also (IMO) very cute and crazy smart. I got to know her and we did some studying together outside of class. She was also into the alternative music scene (this was the 80’s) and I saw her at a few shows. We started to get close and kinda/sorta started dating when she invited me to a party at her friends house.
Her friends were VERY nerdy and included a lot of militant lesbians. They hated me on sight. Although I was also kind of nerdy and pursuing a degree in the sciences, they pegged me as something else. I was tall and athletic and played sports for the University, and I guess I represented everything that they hated about men, without bothering to get to know me. She was upset and apologized to me, but over time they just rolled her. It never went any farther between us.
She was a bit weak and far too susceptible to the influence of her friends. That, I think, was her “nice girl” problem. She didn’t want to upset her friends.
It doesn’t just happen to nerdy girls. It’s probably more pronounced in the sorority types, who have extremely rigid standards for dating. They might really like the guy in Law School, but he’s showing signs of premature balding or his clothes are old and out of fashion. Those sorority girls can be harsh and bucking the trend can ostracize you.
So I see it as the root of the female “nice guy” problem. The influence of their “friends.” It is a powerful force.
Good responses in this thread. A common opinion expressed thus far: Men and women who are unsuccessful at dating often share the following characteristics:
- An entitled attitude;
- Desperation;
- Not understanding what the opposite gender finds attractive or unattractive;
- Believing negative, (sometimes society-promoted) misconceptions about the opposite gender;
- Not willing to correct one’s own flaws;
- Believing that life ought to be “fair” (to be true, life isn’t fair, but these folks may themselves have a skewed notion of “fairness”)
What do you think?
Not an equivalent, but a mirror image problem - the women who somehow by horrid fate wind up over and over with violent, abusive men who assault and stalk them.
Hard to know what’s more tiresome - the boring and unappealing nice guys who bemoan their lack of female companionship, or the poor, put upon women who are drawn to the drama of sociopathic men.
I think a lot of nice guys and girls don’t have the social skills necessary to be attractive. Not that they’re necessarily off-putting, but that there’s really not anything that catches the interest of a potential date.
They’re the ones you run into ten years later at your high school reunion and even though you had classes with them for four years, you really don’t have any clear memories of them.