# The word Shiksa **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 18, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444 "2022-10-18T16:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/21 "2022-10-18T17:55:38Z")
> [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](#): > > Howard, from _The_ _Big Bang Theory_, explains: “A shiksagoddess isn’t an actual goddess. And we don’t pray to them. We prey on them.” How is this not completely disgusting? I didn’t watch that show. Is Howard a racist character akin to Archie Bunker? Maybe it’s more well known now but I don’t think it’s less offensive. It’s not like non-Jewish women are reclaiming the word like was done with queer. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/22 "2022-10-18T17:56:16Z")
> [@Aspenglow](#): > > I can see why @puzzlegal was reluctant to moderate a post where the poster was using an affectionate, private term of endearment in describing his beloved. I would have felt the same reluctance. > > However, private terms of endearment should perhaps stay just that: Private. If a term is still accepted by some to be offensive, then it’s not a reasonable excuse to force others to view it as acceptable just because used as an endearment on a public message board. > > I do think the offensiveness of the term has lessened from years ago. > > A gentle mod note asking the author to refrain from using derogatory terms on the Board, even if obviously used in a loving way, might have been a better way to go. I endorse all parts of this post. > [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Meanwhile, _Tiffany Smiley, you lying bitch_ exists with, AFAICT, no complaints. – you know, that’s a point. I focused on the “lying” part of it, which seems pretty accurate; but I strongly recommend a non-sexist insult to go with it. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/23 "2022-10-18T17:57:08Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > The use of the word “Shiksha” however is racist I never realized non Jewish women were a race! ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/24 "2022-10-18T17:57:47Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > Meanwhile, _Tiffany Smiley, you lying bitch_ exists with, AFAICT, no complaints. That should be moderated as well. Gendered insults, and bitch specifically, have been moderated in posts many times. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/25 "2022-10-18T17:58:36Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > a word that from this thread itself you see has racist connotations > [@am77494](#): > > The use of the word “Shiksha” however is racist I haven’t seen that yet. Derogatory, sure; that’s been claimed, and I see no reason to argue with it; racist, though? ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/26 "2022-10-18T17:58:37Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > @crowmanyclouds Your ethnic origins has to do with you finding it derogatory Interesting take on something I never said. ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/27 "2022-10-18T18:00:56Z")
Bigoted would have been a better word to use but this side discussion is not really relevant. ---
**Author:** ![Kron](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kron/32/12444_2.png) [@Kron](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kron)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/28 "2022-10-18T18:03:23Z")
I disagree. The thread’s entire purpose is backhandedly accusing SDMB modding of racism (see thread title), but with zero racism in sight. ---
**Author:** ![Thing.Fish](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thing.fish/32/9168_2.png) [@Thing.Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thing.Fish)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/29 "2022-10-18T18:07:30Z")
I agree that it is a derogatory term (meaning literally “abomination”). However, it is also true that many Jews (and others) aren’t aware of the literal meaning and use it in (what they think is) a non-derogatory way, including to refer to their own loved ones. In the context of someone using it in an obviously affectionate and non-racist way, I agree that “gentle mod note” would have been the best way to go. ---
**Author:** ![CairoCarol](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cairocarol/32/3825_2.png) [@CairoCarol](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CairoCarol)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/30 "2022-10-18T18:08:41Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > Is Howard a racist character akin to Archie Bunker? Well, not precisely, but sort of yes - Howard was initially portrayed as a sleazebag with regard to women, someone who was just looking for any successful angle he could find to manipulate them into sleeping with him. Then his character genuinely fell in love and he outgrew his immature attitudes. (Or I guess that’s what the writers intended to portray. The show wasn’t very good after a while - I watched it up to the very last episode, but especially as time went by it seemed that the writers were willing to sacrifice character consistency for the sake of wrapping up a plot in a single episode, or worse yet for a single joke.) ---
**Author:** ![hajario](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/hajario/32/171_2.png) [@hajario](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hajario)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/31 "2022-10-18T18:08:49Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > How is this not completely disgusting? I didn’t watch that show. Is Howard a racist character akin to Archie Bunker? I just did my own research. They had a Jewish character say that? Every woman that I have romantically loved isn’t Jewish. If someone described me that way I would never speak to them again. Edit: Just saw Carol’s post. The fact that they had a sleazy character say that specifically argues that the term is a slur. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/32 "2022-10-18T18:15:20Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > How is this not completely disgusting? I didn’t watch that show. Is Howard a racist character akin to Archie Bunker? > > Maybe it’s more well known now but I don’t think it’s less offensive. It’s not like non-Jewish women are reclaiming the word like was done with queer. Yeah, that usage is pretty misogynistic and gross, no doubt. I don’t watch the show beyond the five minutes I needed to realize it was nails-on-chalkboard for me, so I can’t speak to the character. But in the same quote, we have Drew Barrymore, Christine Benvenuto, and the author of _Boy Vey!_ self-describing as shiksas, which sounds akin to “reclaiming” the word – except that the dynamic is very different when it’s members of the dominant group reclaiming a word used by a non-dominant group. It seems pretty complicated, and not unambiguously a slur in all usages. There’s a bit of an analogy to “bitch,” a word that is ambiguously a slur. If I call someone a lying bitch, it’s a slur. If I admiringly describe my wife in her battles with family trauma as “one tough bitch,” it’s much less of a slur; and if my wife describes herself that way, it’s not a slur at all. I wouldn’t use the term to describe someone else, not even admiringly, because of the slur connotations. Complicated. ---
**Author:** ![kenobi\_65](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kenobi_65/32/13178_2.png) [@kenobi\_65](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kenobi_65)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/33 "2022-10-18T18:15:54Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > They had a Jewish character say that? As @CairoCarol notes: the character of Howard was, in the early seasons, an unrepentant, sleazy horndog. He also was the stereotype of the Jewish mama’s boy who still lives at home with (and simultaneously worships and loathes) his mother, and seemed to be ambivalent about his Jewish heritage. FWIW, Chuck Lorre, the show’s creator and showrunner, is Jewish. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/34 "2022-10-18T18:16:54Z")
> [@kenobi\_65](#): > > As @CairoCarol notes: the character of Howard was, in the early seasons, an unrepentant, sleazy horndog. He also was the stereotype of the Jewish mama’s boy who still lives at home with (and simultaneously worships and loathes) his mother, and seemed to be ambivalent about his Jewish heritage. This is interesting, and has real resonance with the linked article’s discussion of Phillip Roth and his use of the word. ---
**Author:** ![Baal\_Houtham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/baal_houtham/32/13604_2.png) [@Baal\_Houtham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Baal_Houtham)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/35 "2022-10-18T18:19:03Z")
The usage didn’t bother me. I found it a bit sweet. — Baal Houtham (old, white, male, protestant-background atheist) ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/36 "2022-10-18T18:20:44Z")
> [@am77494](#): > > > [@wolfpup](#): > > > > Offensive to who? > > Offensive to me - as a person of Indian origin. You seem to be struggling mightily to find offense where clearly none was intended, and pertaining to a word that has absolutely nothing to do with being of Indian origin. ---
**Author:** ![DocCathode](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doccathode/32/18773_2.png) [@DocCathode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DocCathode)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/37 "2022-10-18T18:31:06Z")
I could argue. But, if other posters find the word offensive, I’ll stop using it. I’m still confused by the OP’s claim that it is ‘racist’ though. ---
**Author:** ![What\_Exit](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/what_exit/32/10652_2.png) [@What\_Exit](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/What_Exit)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/38 "2022-10-18T18:37:59Z")
Now personally as one of the mods, that had nothing to do with this decision, I find the title of the thread pretty insulting. I’m being slammed as part of a group. Not for anything I did or didn’t do. * * * * * * On the subject of the thread itself, I honestly never would have consider shiksa offensive by itself. It can be derogatory but often isn’t in the NYC Metro area at least. Probably the most Jewish place in America. I’m not Jewish, but my wife is. It really has nothing at all to do with Indians, it most often is used referring to a non-Jewish Northern European Woman, especially if Blonde. But that is regional I guess. I assume the word is Yiddish. I’ll Google it and check. Yes, Yiddish and a term for non-Jewish woman or girl. Interesting: > **[Shiksa | Severity](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Shiksa#Severity)** > > In North America, the term is typically considered pejorative but not a severe slur. Sometimes, response to its use has treated it as more severe. In 2009, it was recorded as a hate crime in Toronto. In 2014, Rabbi Jack Abramowitz described it as "simply indefensible", "inherently condescending, racist and misogynistic". It appears opinion on it varies a lot. Probably by region mostly. ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/39 "2022-10-18T18:38:26Z")
> [@DocCathode](#): > > I’m still confused by the OP’s claim that it is ‘racist’ though. The word “racism” has generalized to mean “identity-based bigotry”, rather than the original more specific meaning of “race-based bigotry”. It’s a common type of evolution of connotation in English. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [October 18, 2022, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/40 "2022-10-18T18:41:28Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > > [@DocCathode](#): > > > > I’m still confused by the OP’s claim that it is ‘racist’ though. > > The word “racism” has generalized to mean “identity-based bigotry”, rather than the original more specific meaning of “race-based bigotry”. It’s a common type of evolution of connotation in English. Which does not square with, > [@am77494](#): > > Feel free to circle the wagon though because **it is not you “they are coming for”. Its just some poor Indians**. The complaint is that this is specifically anti-Indian racism. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444.md?page=3)