# The word Shiksa **URL:** \ **Category:** About This Message Board\ **Created:** [October 18, 2022, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444 "2022-10-18T16:18:30Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 6:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/101 "2022-10-19T06:48:58Z")
> [@crowmanyclouds](#): > > How that phrase isn’t also a anti-Indian slur leaves one to ponder because it’s a [completely culture-neutral action](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Wagon_fort#Laager)? ---
**Author:** ![omenran](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/omenran/32/3318_2.png) [@omenran](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/omenran)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/102 "2022-10-19T07:04:30Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > Thus, I don’t use words like: > > - aviatrix I personally think aviatrix is a cooler term than aviator. Maybe in part because the -trix suffix is pretty rare in modern use. Dominatrix is the most common, I think, but was also not on your list. As someone from an area where there is much less visible and apparent population of Jewish people, I don’t think I have come across shishka before so only read the post with the tone of affection. I admit to speaking from ignorance with Jewess not seeming offensive as sounding old and archaic to my ear. However kike has come up in media I’ve consumed enough times to be baldly offensive and derogatory to Jewish people, and I don’t see it as being different in degree or usage than terms for people of other races or ethnicities. (ie chink, wetback, and so on) ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 7:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/103 "2022-10-19T07:21:03Z")
I believe “shiksa” means something like “detestable filth” [https://assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=9101&language=id](https://assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=9101&language=id) [http://ericlevy.com/Revel/BDB/BDB/21/sin253.html#t117](http://ericlevy.com/Revel/BDB/BDB/21/sin253.html#t117) so be sure that is what you mean when you utter it; do not see how it could be used as an affectionate term. > [@Kimstu](#): > > Yeah, it’s astounding how many of those “ethnic female” words are actually attested, sometimes from sources as late as the 20th century. “Jewess” and “Negress” of course, but also “Turkess”, “Indianess”, “Saraceness”, etc. I am absolutely not suggesting you should use such language today, especially if they might appear to be at least borderline sexist, but I always figured many of them were merely a case of (vestigial) gender\[1\] in English. People do not object to words like “queen”, do they? * * * 1. in, let’s say, Russian, a man would be “amerikanets” while a woman would be “amerikanka”. ---
**Author:** ![MrDibble](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mrdibble/32/114_2.png) [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/104 "2022-10-19T08:08:07Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I believe the post was reported at the time, and a mod (not me, not sure who) rejected the report. And it just got reported again because of my comment. So, if the user had previously reported the issue and been shot down, is the implication that they started the FQ thread disingenuously (by not referencing the offending thread at all, and pretending it wasn’t just about _shiksa_) to gain ammo for this ATMB thread? I think that should be worth a sanction in itself. Or was it some other user that reported it originally? ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/105 "2022-10-19T08:40:18Z")
> [@hajario](#): > > > [@Aspenglow](#): > > > > A gentle mod note asking the author to refrain from using derogatory terms on the Board, even if obviously used in a loving way, might have been a better way to go. > > Yes. This would have been perfect. I thought about flagging his posts many times, but I knew it would bog down to an argument just like this thread. Forget all your arguments about racism or changing meanings of words. The fact is that he has reduced this woman to just one characteristic - a non-Jew. I admit I don’t read all his posts, but it seems like the overwhelming majority call her a shiksa. Not his girlfriend, not his SO, not his partner, not his sweetheart or darling. To him, the important thing he wants everyone to know about this woman upfront is that she is a non-Jew. This is a word and an idea that Jews of my age have tried to stamp out. I don’t care how much your mother loves you, her calling your girlfriend a shiksa and saying that you should bring home a nice Jewish girl is totally offensive. And, yes, it can be racist. Many Jews are atheist and couldn’t tell you the difference between the Torah and a Tylenol, but they still want their children to marry another Jew. What would you think if a member of your family called your spouse a negro or oriental? Probably not so cute, right? > [@What\_Exit](#): > > It can be derogatory but often isn’t in the NYC Metro area at least. Probably the most Jewish place in America. Just so happens I am a New York Jew, and I can tell you it is derogatory and has been for a long time. It’s an old peoples word and for some people that’s enough reason to cut them some slack. I’m not one of those. > [@Thing.Fish](#): > > In mainstream American culture, including among Jews who don’t have rabbis, it isn’t really considered a slur anymore. Except for people like me, of whom there are many in NY. I don’t know how I could be any more mainstream. > [@DocCathode](#): > > But, if other posters find the word offensive, I’ll stop using it. Thank you. What really made your usage really bad was your constant use of shiksa in describing her. As I said, it was the thing we knew most about her from your posts because you used it so often. Until this thread, that was the only thing I knew about her. In most of your posts, there was no reason to call her a shiksa because that had nothing to do with what was being talked about. You didn’t tell us she was Indian in every post, why tell us she’s a non-Jew? > [@Joeu](#): > > That’s only **relatively** innocuous. If you’ve ever been on the receiving end (either of the receiving ends) of that mother’s disapproval, you might find it a lot less innocuous. That mother does not mean it in a neutral or innocuous way at all. She is angry at her son and demeaning of his wife. > > The term is derogatory. It just is. It’s neither neutral nor positive. It never has a polite or kind connotation. It can be used affectionately, in an insider group, or humorously, but the affection and the humor both rely on the negative meaning of the word for their force. Good explanation, thanks. > [@hajario](#): > > Holy crap! You do not come off well here. If any one used the word kike to describe someone and it wasn’t modded, we’d be having words. It’s every bit as bad as the n-word and probably should be k-word if it were anywhere near as common. And Jewess is always offensive it’s good analogy to shikseh. What if I described an African American SO as my n-word (uncensored)? Holy crap indeed! Good to know kike is a-ok from at least one mod. Kike is not okay, even coming from a Jew. We don’t run around calling each other kikes. There is no good use of the word kike. We don’t want it reclaimed, we want it stamped out completely. > [@puzzlegal](#): > > I feel like both Jewess and shiksa have the potential to be nasty, but can be used in milder ways. Sorry, you are mistaken. They have no place in 2022. There is no redeeming value to either word. > [@thorny\_locust](#): > > I think you should consider both of those as moddable. And very most definitely “kike” should be modded. That’s extremely offensive, and has never been anything else. I cannot even imagine how kike could be used in a non-offensive way. It’s probably in the top three along with n\*\*\*\*r and wetback. > [@DocCathode](#): > > How do we feel about “my little falooda”? I understand what you are doing here, but why not just refer to her as your SO or girlfriend etc? ---
**Author:** ![Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/b77776/32.png) [@Paul\_was\_in\_Saudi](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Paul_was_in_Saudi)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/106 "2022-10-19T08:55:24Z")
I tend to support free speech. YMMV. ---
**Author:** ![wolfpup](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolfpup/32/10618_2.png) [@wolfpup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolfpup)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/107 "2022-10-19T09:34:58Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I believe “shiksa” means something like “detestable filth” > [Search Entry](https://assyrianlanguages.org/akkadian/dosearch.php?searchkey=9101&language=id) > [Microsoft Word - sin.doc](http://ericlevy.com/Revel/BDB/BDB/21/sin253.html#t117) > > so be sure that is what you mean when you utter it; do not see how it could be used as an affectionate term. I don’t think the original historical meaning of a term like _shikseh_ (or _shiksa_) is of any particular relevance here, because words change meaning over time. This is particularly true of emotional or affective language where the meanings of such words tend to weaken over time in the course of linguistic evolution, a process called semantic bleaching, so that a term that may once have been powerfully expressive or an intolerable insult may gradually become nothing more than a friendly jab. A word like “bastard” is probably in that category; once it would have been taken literally as a vile insult against someone’s mother, while today it’s often part of friendly banter between guys. This is part of the problem with excessive zeal about policing language, especially when the context is clearly inoffensive. ---
**Author:** ![nightshadea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/7ba0ec/32.png) [@nightshadea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nightshadea)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 9:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/108 "2022-10-19T09:43:23Z")
> [@CairoCarol](#): > > I had no recollection that Edwin Edwards originated that phrase, although I’m sure I knew it at the time, as in 1983, for boring reasons I needn’t recount here, Louisiana politics were very important to me. Thanks for the history lesson! actually, he didn’t Huey long’s brother earl who became governor of Louisiana in the 40s or so said it although some say huey himself said it in the 30s … ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 1:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/109 "2022-10-19T13:14:27Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > This is a word and an idea that Jews of my age have tried to stamp out. I’m not sure what your age is, but it’s nothing so monolithic as that. The majority of Jews I know (including my whole family, ranging in age from 96 to 1) don’t consider it a word that needs stamping out. I use it affectionally with my wife; she uses it herself. There are occasions where words that start out as offensive get neutered through use. Shiksa can be used as an insult, but so can Yankee. That doesn’t forbid use of the word in any context. ---
**Author:** ![BigT](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bigt/32/12044_2.png) [@BigT](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BigT)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/110 "2022-10-19T14:03:19Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I view shiksa as derogatory but not hateful if that makes any sense. I don’t really get how that’s possible. To me, those mean the same thing. Sure, sometimes those terms can be used within an ingroup, but then it’s about repurposing the word. And that wouldn’t apply here, since we’re not in said in-group. Heck, I’m not entirely sure how “shiksa” can work with an in-group, since it’s inherently a word for a part of the outgroup. But I guess maybe the ingroup in this situation is Jewish people and their Gentile relatives? Regardless, I suspect the OP felt the same way. It’s just bizarre seeing @puzzlegal say that the term is derogatory, and then defend it as an affectionate term. It’s even weirder seeing her defend “Jewess” for the same reason. @Aspenglow has it right. Maybe the term has been repurposed as an affectionate nickname to the person who used it, and is okay in that context. But we aren’t in that context. We wouldn’t say the same thing for most other derrogatory words about someone’s ethnicity, would we? Only ones related to Jewish stuff? Would “my little Negress” also get a pass? How about “My faggy friends”? “My tranny girlfriend”? It seems a pretty obvious line here to me. We don’t need mods having to decide which derogatory terms are okay, and we don’t want to allow the worst of them, so why allow them at all? I don’t think the OP necessarily assumed the mod was anti-Indian. I think they think the person in question sees non-Jews as lesser, hence using a derogatory term for them. The OP is only mentioning being Indian because the person they are defending from the slur is Indian. And, yeah, Slur. It’s a derogatory word about someone’s ethnicity. It sure seems that is the appropriate word. We can quibble about how much of a slur, but it sure seems to be a slur based on how it is repeatedly defined. And based on what @puzzlegal described it as in the linked thread. ---
**Author:** ![thorny\_locust](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thorny_locust/32/431_2.png) [@thorny\_locust](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thorny_locust)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/111 "2022-10-19T14:48:33Z")
> [@DPRK](#): > > I believe “shiksa” means something like “detestable filth” That’s the original derivation, yes. The original derivation of the N word is “Black”. What’s happened with words in the interval matters. “Shiksa” is still derogatory enough to be careful with; but the reason it’s derogatory isn’t because of its original derivation, but because of its use in the past few centuries and particularly in the most recent one. > [@DPRK](#): > > I am absolutely not suggesting you should use such language today, especially if they might appear to be at least borderline sexist, but I always figured many of them were merely a case of (vestigial) gender[[1]](#footnote-23805561-1) in English. That was to some extent true; but when they were in use, nobody said “whitess” or “caucasianess” or “Englishess” or “Germaness”. ---
**Author:** ![Darren\_Garrison](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/darren_garrison/32/92_2.png) [@Darren\_Garrison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Darren_Garrison)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 2:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/112 "2022-10-19T14:55:35Z")
> [@BigT](#): > > Would “my little Negress” also get a pass? How about “My faggy friends”? “My tranny girlfriend”? Meh. In modern social-justicey terms, all those terms are “punching down” to a minority group. But shiksa? As a term for a non-Jewish woman? Applies to _ninety-nine point eight percent of all women in the world_. Approximately zero percent of which _care_ if they are called a shiksa. It is a word with no bite. It is punching up. To most people if they have even heard of it at all they have heard it as a funny term from a _Sienfeld_ episode, with no more “insult” than any of the Yiddish words used in a typical episode of _The Nanny_. A slur used by 0.2% of the world’s population is going to have no bite for the other 99.8%. ---
**Author:** ![asterion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/4da419/32.png) [@asterion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/asterion)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/113 "2022-10-19T15:10:47Z")
For a group of posters and moderators that spend a lot of time worrying about specific words and identity politics, it sure seems hypocritical to see all this parsing about how a particular phrase isn’t actually offensive and how the person who claims offense can’t actually be offended. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/114 "2022-10-19T15:13:31Z")
> [@omenran](#): > > Dominatrix is the most common, I think, but was also not on your list. It’s not a word that I find I need to make use of very often. I would see this word as being somewhat different because in my experience it is strongly tied to a sexual fetish of some kind and it is closely tied to gender. “Dominator” seems a little too generic for the purpose. If one is generally speaking about BDSM roles, then the generic terms seem to be dom/dominant and sub/submissive. “Dominatrix” seems to be a specific character archetype, not a general description of an occupation. But who knows. I don’t really have a stake in the matter. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/115 "2022-10-19T15:14:51Z")
> [@asterion](#): > > it sure seems hypocritical to see all this parsing about how a particular phrase isn’t actually offensive and how the person who claims offense can’t actually be offended. This seems to me to be a mischaracterization of the discussion as a whole. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/116 "2022-10-19T15:16:44Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > I use it affectionally with my wife; she uses it herself. Do you refer to your wife as shiksa when talking to other people? When people ask about her, do you lead off with “She’s a shiksa”? No, you use it privately, which is not what we are talking about here. ---
**Author:** ![Telemark](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/telemark/32/372_2.png) [@Telemark](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Telemark)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/117 "2022-10-19T15:20:14Z")
> [@mordecaiB](#): > > Do you refer to your wife as shiksa when talking to other people? Yes, when with people I know. > [@mordecaiB](#): > > When people ask about her, do you lead off with “She’s a shiksa”? No, but I also don’t lead off that she’s from Connecticut. ---
**Author:** ![Akaj](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/akaj/32/145_2.png) [@Akaj](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Akaj)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/118 "2022-10-19T15:29:11Z")
> [@Acsenray](#): > > “Dominator” seems a little too generic for the purpose. If one is generally speaking about BDSM roles, then the generic terms seem to be dom/dominant and sub/submissive. “Dominatrix” seems to be a specific character archetype, not a general description of an occupation. When I’m driving and my wife is monitoring the GPS, I call her my “navigatrix.” 😜 ---
**Author:** ![engineer\_comp\_geek](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/engineer_comp_geek/32/504_2.png) [@engineer\_comp\_geek](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/engineer_comp_geek)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/119 "2022-10-19T15:37:28Z")
**Moderator Note** > [@am77494](#): > > Recently I started a thread that asked if other languages have non-derogatory words like Shiksha and Gentiles that Jews used Exactly where did you get the idea that it is open season on the mods? Nowhere in the registration agreement does it say you get to beat the staff like a stubborn mule. Your thread title and numerous comments in this thread amount to almost a Pit-level attack on the entire staff. You can discuss almost anything in ATMB, but you are required to be respectful to other users and to the staff. You cannot Pit moderators for their moderation, and you cannot make Pit-style attacks against the staff in ATMB. (You can however Pit moderators for the things they post as normal users) Fortunately for you, there is actually a valid point to discuss here, and I have always tolerated a certain amount of misbehavior in ATMB as long as the user in question is attempting to solve or discuss an issue. So this is just a mod note, and not a warning. But do keep in mind that attacking the staff is a warnable offense. Note that I have also changed the title to more accurately reflect the issue being discussed. ---
**Author:** ![mordecaiB](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mordecaib/32/7725_2.png) [@mordecaiB](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mordecaiB)\ **Post date:** [October 19, 2022, 3:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444/120 "2022-10-19T15:44:03Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > Yes, when with people I know. Can you point out to me all the times you have referred to her as shiksa on the board? Because that’s what **Doc Cathode** does. We don’t even know if she’s his wife or girlfriend, just that she’s not a Jew. In the one short paragraph you wrote, we already know more about the woman you call shiksa than in all of **Doc Cathode** ’s posts. > [@Telemark](#): > > No, but I also don’t lead off that she’s from Connecticut. Totally unconnected to anything we are talking about. No one has ever used Connecticut as a slur, nor is it a group of people that are historically persecuted. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-word-shiksa/973444.md?page=7)