I read it when it first came out, so I may be foggy on the details here. I never got the impression we were supposed to think about the “rape” one way or the other. It was merely explaining how Jenny got pregnant and what a strange person she was.
Rape is a recurring theme in John Irving’s books. I’m sure someone must’ve interviewed him on that aspect of his writing. I may have to Google around and see if I can find anything.
Yes! And the wackiness is too wack for me. This is not my planet.
Oh man…I loved this book.
I really liked Garp. What I liked was that we got a 360 degree view of the main characters. At least I think we did, it’s been a while. But that’s what Irving is good at; character development. These people have their good sides and their bad sides, just like real people. And then he sticks them into very weird situations where there are usually rapes and bears.
*Garp * is the only book I’ve even flung away from me in anger.
It’s not because it was too graphic. I’m fine with that. I love J. G. Ballard for goodness sake!
I found *Garp * to be emotionally cold and incredible manipulative. John Irving is like Roald Dahl without the humor. Or Steven Spielberg without the heart.
I don’t think that the mindset at the time would have considered the use of Garp Sr. to be a rape. And it was one more example of how a woman had to be, what, a little sterner than normal, a little abnormal, to live on her own terms in pre-lib times? Or at least that that was how Jenny had managed it.
I absolutely agree. I hesitated to use the word, which is why I put it in quotes. I’m not sure you can call it rape, per se, if the person isn’t wielding the humiliation or soul-crushing dominance (neither of which were intended by Jenny) a rapist inflicts on his victim. There was no anger here. As I recall he was a complete vegetable. He was no longer even “arp”-ing, was he? I’m not saying that I think people are free to go around having sex with the mentally retarded or damaged. But I’m also not sure that “rape” is what we should call this particular act.
Does there have to be humilation or sole crushing dominance for an act to be rape, though? In cases of statuatory rape, the victim may not even realize they’re a victim, yet still be unable to consent. There also may not be anger/dominance/power issues in cases of aquaintance rape where one party pushes or coerces the other party to do something they feel uncomfortable with. I just don’t think that rape necessarily means violence or anger on the part of the rapist, but simply a lack of consent on the part of the victim (whether because they do not consent or because they cannot).
Another Irving fan here. Garp was the first of his that I read, and I loved it–the quirkiness, the humor, the love despite flaws. It isn’t my favorite, though–The Water-Method Man is. I am glad to hear the new one is good.
Well, you’re certainly right on that point. There was no consent. From a legal standpoint I don’t think there is any question that he was raped. I guess there’s no other way to classify it than as such.
However, I still don’t think we were supposed to get emotionally hung up on that aspect of the scene. And I don’t think Irving wants us to like Jenny necessarily. She’s like most people. Good and bad all rolled into one.
I found this link on his wikipedia page. It is a fanatastic interview, and actually addresses whether or not he likes his own characters about 5 minutes in.
http://video.google.com/videoplay?docid=-8771420998626787359&q=innerviews
What aggravates me is that each. and every. one. of his characters, even the walk-ons, is just soooo far out, and he tells us how far out they are, and tells us and tells us, in plodding detail, and best of all, makes sure to outline their motivations, just in case we had any silly ideas about wanting to figure out for ourselves what makes them tick. It’s all just so dull. I’d rather eat the pages than read the words on them.
As far as HbWoSG, I bought a copy for fifty cents at the library. Took it home, started reading it. Weeks later, was vacuuming under the bed and found it. I must have fallen asleep with it and never noticed its absence the next day or thereafter.
I’ll second that. Also, if you don’t like the Garp book, try the Garp film. The presence of Robin Williams should mean the book glows radiantly in comparison.
(This is why I love posting about books on the Dope.)
Abotu the rape aspect, there’s probably something that I am affected by more, growing up in this generation as opposed to the previous. The feminism may not touch me as much but rape has become so much more open and publicized that it does seem like rape to me. I compare it, as always, to a man having sex with a woman in the same condition - even if she enjoys it, I’m pretty sure legally she can’t give consent. But Yllaria gets it in one.
Dung Beetle pins it for me, too. It’s a bit too wacky. Most of us don’t have such odd happenings in our life. Maybe one or two of them but not all of them.
*Garp *was my 1st exposure to John Irving and I loved it at the time. It opened my eyes to the world of the writer. My favorite scene is Garp’s reply to the literary magazine that has solicited him for new material now that he is marketable product after previously rejecting him.
(paraphrasing) “Sorry. I’m still doing nothing new and innovating with the language.”
*Garp *was Irving’s magnum opus to that point in his career. I went back and read his earlier novels and they (Water Method Man, The 158 Lb Marriage, Setting Free The Bears) seemed to be dress rehearsals for Garp.
On the other hand, The Hotel New Hampshire was laugh out-loud funny to me.
I liked “Garp” a lot (the movie, too). I read the book as a very young adult and many of the ideas were new and foreign to me.
I can in no way relate to the New England/wrestling/boarding school ideas, so these were interesting to me just for their strangeness.
Jenny Garp being a ‘sexual suspect’ for wanting a baby but not a man, and doing something about it, was scandelously unheard of in my world. I thought she was very independent as a nurse but was willing to sacrifice some of her carefully chosen freedom by working in a boys school in order got give her son an education, which I found conflicting. I guess she was the first feminist I ever ‘met’. I wanted to know more about her thinking.
I recall being shocked that the Ellen Jamesians would cut out their tongues (who would do something like that? ) and the affairs (do all adults do that?).
I think my favorite character was Roberta Muldoon. Sex reassignment (especially of someone so ‘male’…a football player!) was another new idea I had never met.
Trivia Time: The book’s first chapter, “Jenny and the Ball Turret Gunner” first appeared in Playboy magazine as a short story (June 1976). I was in the Army when I read it a couple of years later – one of the most erotic things I’d ever read. The following year (February 1977) another chapter appeared in Playboy as “Garp’s Night Out.” I finally read the book in 1983 and saw the movie on video in about '85. It was all pretty good. The movie was my first exposure (that I remember) to John Lithgow.
People actually read Playboy?
I always took that part to be another of the books comments on society’s double standards in sex and gender roles, one of the few that cuts in favor of women. A woman can have sex with a guy in a coma, and it’s somehow morally justifiable. Reverse the genders, and you’ve got the hospital scene from Kill Bill. It’s this sort of moral ambiguity, in all of the book’s characters, that makes The World According to Garp so amazing.
I read it when I was in the 7th grade. My mother forbade me from reading it so I would sneak it off the bookshelf and use a hair to mark my place.
I really don’t think we are to like Jenny. She made her own rules in a world that she was not designed for. How can we say that we have come so far when a a woman still can’t decide to be a mother without wanting a husband and get away scott free? In my head and in my heart, I can honestly see the two not being related at all.
I just think Garp was raised by a crazy-but-functional woman and lived in that shadow all his life. Now that I think about his worry for his kids, it reminds me of my husbands Grandmother. Those folks are out there.
Irving does have some wacky folk. You might like A Prayer For Owen Meany. Then again, you might not like that either.
Maybe he’s trying to figure out how deeply flawed people can continue to live instead of destroy themselves in the face of the person they have become?