# The World's Oldest Profession **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [March 17, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811 "2006-03-17T21:11:53Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Ronald\_C.Semone](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/cc9497/32.png) [@Ronald\_C.Semone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ronald_C.Semone)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/1 "2006-03-17T21:11:53Z")
I frequently see references to pimping as the “Second Oldest Profession.” Presumably prostitution is considered the oldest. Why? Does the earliest mention of prostitution (biblical?) predate the mention of any other profession? ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/2 "2006-03-17T21:19:16Z")
As everyone knows, flintknapping is the oldest occupation. Typical misconception. 😉 All kidding aside, I don’t think there’s any evidence that prostitution is the “oldest profession” - it’s just a half-joke, half-assumed statement about humanity that our first bartering would be for the services of another for sex. If we’re counting occupation as “a living”, then the oldest occupation is parent. If we’re talking occupation as involving a trade of resources for services, perhaps…potter? toolsmith of some kind? ---
**Author:** ![A.R.Cane](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ee7513/32.png) [@A.R.Cane](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/A.R.Cane)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 9:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/3 "2006-03-17T21:21:46Z")
Gotta’ be politician, somebody always wants to be in charge. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/4 "2006-03-17T22:24:26Z")
The problem with finding a factual answer to this question is that nobody ever defines “profession”. By most definitions it’s impossible for prostitution to have ben the first profession. If we take the standard definition of profession as an occupation requiring extensive specialised training then prostitution has never been a profession. Prostitution is unskilled labour. If we define a profession as an occupation from which a person obtains the majority of their needs then of course prostitution can’t have been the first profession. People could only become prostitutes after there was a year-round-food supply available that people could trade with. As such prostitution had to post-date farmer as a profession by some time. If we define profession as any occupation where labour or knowledge is exchanged for reward then prostitution is possibly in the running, but it is still highly unlikely that it pre-dates priest or soldier. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/5 "2006-03-17T22:28:44Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If we take the standard definition of profession as an occupation requiring extensive specialised training then prostitution has never been a profession. Prostitution is unskilled labour. _Most_ prostitutes are unskilled, but I would dispute the claim that prostitution has _never_ been a skilled profession. There are several examples in history of certain kinds of prostitutes or professional concubines being extensively trained. ---
**Author:** ![AskNott](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asknott/32/5790_2.png) [@AskNott](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/AskNott)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/6 "2006-03-17T23:31:51Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > _Most_ prostitutes are unskilled, but I would dispute the claim that prostitution has _never_ been a skilled profession. There are several examples in history of certain kinds of prostitutes or professional concubines being extensively trained. In order for a prostitute to be extensively trained, there must have been a teacher. By most standards, teaching is a profession. Humorist Erma Bombeck said that motherhood is the second oldest profession. ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 11:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/7 "2006-03-17T23:39:35Z")
> [@acsenray](#): > > _Most_ prostitutes are unskilled, but I would dispute the claim that prostitution has _never_ been a skilled profession. There are several examples in history of certain kinds of prostitutes or professional concubines being extensively trained. IMO at this point you have crossed the line from prostitute to some other profession thst incorporates a small amountof prositution. It’s analogous to describing a geophysicisist as a labourer. While a geophysicisist might be expected to swing a hammer or pick on regular occasions that is not his primary task, nor is it what he is primnrily trained and paid for. Yes, some tasks within the job are the same as the tasks of a mines labourer, but a geophysicist is not a mines labourer. And in the same way a concubine or geisha might be expected to have sex on regular occassions in order to make a living but that was not her primary task, nor was having sex what she was primarily trained and paid for. Yes, some tasks within the job were the same as the tasks of a prostitute, but a geisha or concubine was not a prostitue. So I will continue to maintain that prostitution has never been a profession despite some professions incorporating prostitution. And I maintain that for the same reason that I maintain that physical labour is not a profession despite numerous professions incorporating physical labour. The distinction in my mind is whether fucking or swinging a pick constitutes the majority of what the person does and what they are trianed for, or whether they primarily do something else and are trained for somehting else and just occassionally fuck or swing a pick. A geisha or concubine spent less time having sex than average women in their societies, yet were fulltime professionals. Ergo they were not prostitutes. ---
**Author:** ![RickJay](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/bb73d2/32.png) [@RickJay](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RickJay)\ **Post date:** [March 17, 2006, 11:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/8 "2006-03-17T23:41:14Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > If we define a profession as an occupation from which a person obtains the majority of their needs then of course prostitution can’t have been the first profession. People could only become prostitutes after there was a year-round-food supply available that people could trade with. As such prostitution had to post-date farmer as a profession by some time. Farming is a relatively recent invention in the scope of human history. The first profession in human history was hunting and/or gathering, depending on how you interpret the evidence. > [@](#): > > If we define profession as any occupation where labour or knowledge is exchanged for reward then prostitution is possibly in the running, but it is still highly unlikely that it pre-dates priest or soldier. Soldiers are even more recent than farmers. In pre-farming societies, there is no such specialized role. Humans started as hunters and gatherers; that was the first profession. The development of farming and animal husbandry led to all the others. It is extremely unlikely that any woman was a professional prostitute until the development of farming and, hence, the division of labour and large human settlements. ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/9 "2006-03-18T00:03:10Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > People could only become prostitutes after there was a year-round-food supply available that people could trade with. As such prostitution had to post-date farmer as a profession by some time. Huh? If you’re hungry and I go out and kill an elk, are you saying no one will offer me services in exchange for some of my meat? I imagine this happened rather often. What has farming got to do with it? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/10 "2006-03-18T00:09:21Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > And in the same way a concubine or geisha might be expected to have sex on regular occassions in order to make a living but that was not her primary task, nor was having sex what she was primarily trained and paid for. Just to be technical, I’m pretty sure a concubine is just a woman who lives with a man and has sex with him without being married to him. So, it covers a wide range of situations. ---
**Author:** ![Q.E.D](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/q/51bf81/32.png) [@Q.E.D](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Q.E.D)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/11 "2006-03-18T00:14:01Z")
> [@sunacres](#): > > …offer me services in exchange for some of my meat? That’s called being a gigolo. 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/12 "2006-03-18T00:25:26Z")
> [@RickJay](#): > > Farming is a relatively recent invention in the scope of human history. The first profession in human history was hunting and/or gathering, depending on how you interpret the evidence. And I never suggested otherwise, so I don’t quite know why you quoted me prior to making this rather obvious comment. > [@](#): > > Soldiers are even more recent than farmers. In pre-farming societies, there is no such specialized role. And I never suggested otherwise, so I don’t quite know why you quoted me prior to making this rather obvious comment. > [@](#): > > Humans started as hunters and gatherers; that was the first profession. That depends entirely on how you define profession as I pointed out above. > [@](#): > > I is extremely unlikely that any woman was a professional prostitute until the development of farming and, hence, the division of labour and large human settlements. Gee, this sounds almost identical to what I said: prostitution had to post-date farmer as a profession by some time. > [@sunacres](#): > > Huh? If you’re hungry and I go out and kill an elk, are you saying no one will offer me services in exchange for some of my meat? Now if you took the time to read what you actually quoted you would note the definition requires a _year round_ food supply and that the prostitute _obtains the majority of their needs from prostitution._ The idea that anyone is such a good lay that they could obtain the majority of their needs in a HG society by prostitution for elk meat is laughable. Prostitutes require either a large client base in a small operational area or a smaller number of wealthy patrons for the action to be more than supplemental. Neither of those is possible in HG societies. Only after the adoption of agriculture and dense populations was it possible to have the large towns and wealthy individuals required fro prostitution to generate a majority of a person’s livelihood. > [@Captain Amazing](#): > > Just to be technical, I’m pretty sure a concubine is just a woman who lives with a man and has sex with him without being married to him. So, it covers a wide range of situations. If you are aware of any woman in history living with a man whose primary role was to have sex as opposed to child rearing or similar services then I’d be very interested in seeing it. ---
**Author:** ![Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/d6d6ee/32.png) [@Buckler\_of\_Swashing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Buckler_of_Swashing)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/13 "2006-03-18T00:26:42Z")
Curiously, I have also heard ‘Espionage’ referred to as ‘The world’s oldest profession’. I don’t think it stands up to close examination any more than prostitution does, but am I the only one to have heard this? [/semi hijack] ---
**Author:** ![groman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/73ab20/32.png) [@groman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/groman)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 1:00am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/14 "2006-03-18T01:00:32Z")
I always understood the term “world’s oldest profession” to be somewhat derogatory to women but also somewhat true. The implication is that original human couples (cavepeople time) was a barter exchange of sex for protection and possibly food. Specifically can you imagine a situation where a woman would get protection for herself and her children and possibly food from her mate but completely withhold sex? Highly unlikely. ---
**Author:** ![Annie-Xmas](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecc23a/32.png) [@Annie-Xmas](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Annie-Xmas)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/15 "2006-03-18T14:09:39Z")
> [@AskNott](#): > > Humorist Erma Bombeck said that motherhood is the second oldest profession. And actually had people come to the book signings and ask “So what is the oldest profession?” Exchange on **Barney Miller** Detrich: You know, begging is the oldest profession. Wojo: I thought prostitution was Detrich: Someone had to ask for it. ---
**Author:** ![Fish](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/bc8723/32.png) [@Fish](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fish)\ **Post date:** [March 18, 2006, 5:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/16 "2006-03-18T17:16:58Z")
> [@groman](#): > > … The implication is that original human couples (cavepeople time) was a barter exchange of sex for protection and possibly food. Even so, the best prostitution could hope for is third place. Women were capable of hunting or gathering for themselves, unless there were very small children to care for; therefore, prostitution is behind motherhood. And motherhood itself was arguably in exchange for food and protection, so “hunter” surely counts as a professional service as well. Prostitution _might_ fall to fourth place: surely early cavepeople had some people who hunted, and others who gathered; I exchange some of my Land of the Lost meat for some of your giant strawberries. “Gatherer” would therefore be in the first-place deadlock, if not first by itself. Adding “scavenger” might drop prostitution to fifth place. And before anybody ran out to kill Alice or Grumpy, we had to have the tools to do it with — even a bone or a stick — so “inventor” might be the oldest profession. For the women who had sex because they wanted the man’s sperm so they could assemble a baby — well, that’d go on the board as goods or services rendered. Survey says: “fatherhood” comes in in the top six somewhere. To say prostitution is the oldest profession is to hold a cynical viewpoint of human nature, of both men and women. Just to name one reason, it assumes that nothing can be work if men were gonna do it anyway: eat, sleep, fuck, hunt dangerous animals for food, keep warm, fight off other men, etc., as if men were simple bio-programmed hive-drones. It also assumes that anything women do in exchange _is_ work (cook, fuck, gather berries, raise children) which women do unwillingly, implying women are a higher form of intelligent life than men. As closely as we have defined “profession,” we haven’t defined “prostitution” adequately yet. If we define it as “any woman who has sex with anybody in exchange for _anything at all_” then yeah, it’d be up there in the top ten. But that’s a pretty dim view of women and a broad definition of prostitution which I can’t personally agree with. For starters, it means every woman alive is either a virgin or a prostitute. Yeah, I can’t accept that definition. Me, I say the oldest profession was “shoeshine boy.” ---
**Author:** ![sunacres](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/4491bb/32.png) [@sunacres](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/sunacres)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 1:33am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/17 "2006-03-19T01:33:26Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Now if you took the time to read what you actually quoted you would note the definition requires a _year round_ food supply and that the prostitute _obtains the majority of their needs from prostitution._ > > The idea that anyone is such a good lay that they could obtain the majority of their needs in a HG society by prostitution for elk meat is laughable. Prostitutes require either a large client base in a small operational area or a smaller number of wealthy patrons for the action to be more than supplemental. Neither of those is possible in HG societies. Only after the adoption of agriculture and dense populations was it possible to have the large towns and wealthy individuals required fro prostitution to generate a majority of a person’s livelihood. Oh please. When have surviving humans not had a \*year round \* food supply? “People could only become prostitutes after there was a year-round-food supply available that people could trade with.” When has that not been the case? Prostitutes require a client base of one. One skilled HG operative who wants a reliable source of sex. You can redefine it any way you like, but the expression “the world’s oldest profession” is talking about something that is at once more obvious and more subtle than your definitions. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 1:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/18 "2006-03-19T01:46:12Z")
> [@Blake](#): > > Prostitution is unskilled labour. You gotta stay away from those cheap rub-and tug places. The next time you’re in the SF area, I’ll hook you up with some very skilled professionals. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![TokyoBayer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tokyobayer/32/13989_2.png) [@TokyoBayer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TokyoBayer)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 2:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/19 "2006-03-19T02:10:35Z")
> [@\[Merriam-Webster Online Dictionary](#): > > ([http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/profession](http://www.m-w.com/dictionary/profession))]4 a : a calling requiring specialized knowledge and often long and intensive academic preparation b : a principal calling, vocation, or employment c : the whole body of persons engaged in a calling I think that this would fit under definition b, “a principal calling, vocation, or employment” and so we can still enjoy the joke. ---
**Author:** ![FWorld](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/5daacb/32.png) [@FWorld](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FWorld)\ **Post date:** [March 19, 2006, 4:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811/20 "2006-03-19T04:12:52Z")
What about “Oldest Surviving Profession that Retains so much of its Original Form”? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worlds-oldest-profession/348811.md?page=2)