# The Worst Case Scenario: People of Faith, what would you do? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 8, 2001, 3:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207 "2001-11-08T15:59:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Phlosphr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/c68b51/32.png) [@Phlosphr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Phlosphr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 5:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/21 "2001-11-09T17:20:54Z")
**CAPTAIN** > [@](#): > > Well, there’s a difference though, between saying, “It’s wrong to renounce G-d to save your family”, and “G-d will strike you down if you do”. ok there is the obvious difference here. That _SOME_ believe God will strike you down if you renounce Him or Her. Plain and simple. Then on the other hand _SOME_ believe its wrong to renounce God to save your family. Its a vicious circle for those who believe this… I said an all loving God would never do this. That if you ever had to save your family, and you are a good person, a little white lie to an infidel, to save your family is comepletely in the parameters of still loving your God. Why do those funementalists not understand this. Why are there still people out there that think God is a hard ass who will strike them down if they commit the rarest of infractions? ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/22 "2001-11-09T21:20:37Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > \*\* Why do those funementalists not understand this. Why are there still people out there that think God is a hard ass who will strike them down if they commit the rarest of infractions? \*\* Well, I don’t know that there are many people who do believe that. Most people, fundimentalists or not, recognize human weakness. Certainly no one who’s posted here so far saying that it’s wrong to renounce your faith to save your children believes that G-d would strike them down for it. For example, **Celestina** says: > [@](#): > > My knee-jerk reaction right now–not facing the reality of that type of situation–is to tell them FUCK OFF. Who are they to tell me what to believe and how to believe? My mind is my own, and I won’t sacrifice that for anyone or anything because I couldn’t live with myself if I did. and **Kaptain K** says: > [@](#): > > But In reply to Phlosphr’s statements about God cutting you slack; He wouldn’t, theres no if ands or buts about it. God wants you to be wholely Devoted to him no matter what and if you can’t deal with that then you need to check what’s wrong. BUT god IS a forgiving God and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t forgive you for Denying him (after all peter did it 3 times in one night!) I’m just saying that To deny god would be to Sin… Therefore making it wrong and offensive to God. In Judaism, I know, renouncing your faith is one of the three things that are sins all the time, whether your life or anyone else’s is threatened. (The other two are murder and adultery/sexual misconduct.) Even if you were to do it, though, all that would mean is that you’ve sinned. It doesn’t mean you’re damned for all time or anything. You’ve just given into weakness. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 9:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/23 "2001-11-09T21:46:00Z")
I know it’s only a hypothetical situation, but I wouldn’t imagine that I’d be able to trust someone to make good on their promise not to harm my family in the circumstances you describe. Anyway, supposing that I _did_ have reason to believe them, then I’d probably do what **Steve Wright** said; if that turned out to be the wrong thing to do, then at least my family would still be OK. ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/24 "2001-11-09T23:31:00Z")
\*\*Kaptain K wrote: THink about it, This God was loving enough to lay HIS son’s life on the line for us, can’t we do the same?\*\* Wrong analogy. No one every threatened Jesus and told (the J/C/I) “God either change or I’ll kill your son.” That’s what the OP is presenting to us. **… But In reply to Phlosphr’s statements about God cutting you slack; He wouldn’t, theres no if ands or buts about it. God wants you to be wholely Devoted to him no matter what and if you can’t deal with that then you need to check what’s wrong.** A god who demands such total obedience, even to the point of sacrificing a family member is a Diety not worth following. Thankfully, I’m not a Christian so I don’t have this problem. ---
**Author:** ![Shade](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/2bfe46/32.png) [@Shade](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shade)\ **Post date:** [November 9, 2001, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/25 "2001-11-09T23:40:18Z")
WAG: Maybe God would forgive everyone who renounced their faith under extreme duress, even if he thought they’d done the wrong thing. Or maybe it’s considered so bad to renounce your faith because not only will you go to hell (probably) but so will anyone who follows your example, and this is worse than the torture of you and your family. Or maybe God’s actually quite a ncie guy and is OK with us putting other people before a belief in him. ---
**Author:** ![Kaje](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/f04885/32.png) [@Kaje](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaje)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 12:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/26 "2001-11-10T00:15:09Z")
I have a problem with the notion that “God is just, he won’t hold it against you because you were only doing it because blahblah”. At the same time if I read any thread about the problem of evil, the main response is along the lines of “Just because WE think some things are bad, doesn’t mean God is doing evil by allowing them because [here’s the kicker] we cannot judge God by our standards of morality” I took this to mean that God’s decisions (if they can be called decisions) define morality, and no standard can be applied to “him”. I can understand how people could come to this conclusion and how it is acceptable. I can also understand the notion that “Our standard of good was given to us by God, and therefore God is understanding and compassionate” What I can’t understand is how somebody could try to reconcile both of these views. So how can it be that God would understand and “let slide” what you did because YOU saw it as the greater good in spite of the fact that it disregards direct Godly commandments, while at the same time God is unquestionable? If you want to accept the “God is a good guy” hypothesis, then you run into trouble with the question of evil. Also, isn’t there a bible verse in which Jesus says “if you deny me before man, I will deny you before my father”? Not that this is a definitive answer. I was gonna make another comment but will start up a thread about it instead. ---
**Author:** ![Kaptain\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kaptain\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaptain_K)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 8:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/27 "2001-11-10T20:00:36Z")
Read the bible guys. it’s wrong to denounce you faith and deny God. There’s no way around it. I NEVER said that if you do you’re Dammned to hell but I did say it was wrong. yeah, he’ll cut you slack if it happend if you ask for it, hey; he’d do it if you murdered everyone in your town. My point is, God loves us all, even the murderers and pedifiles, etc. and he’ll forgive us everytime when we screw up, but that doesn’t make it right to screw up. At least it shouldn’t to a christian. Peace yo. ---
**Author:** ![Lodrain](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/c4cdca/32.png) [@Lodrain](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Lodrain)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 10:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/28 "2001-11-10T22:28:12Z")
I believe God is concerned in our best interests - even if they conflict with His. God has all the power He wants - what can one human and his family do? If my family and I were put in that situation, I’d capitulate and sneakily still-believe while showing outward signs of conversion. I’d feel downright bad about it, but it’s better than having my family killed! I think He will love me - I would have done nothing wrong, in my interpretation. I would be protecting those whom I love - that’s the right thing to do, in my opinion. Spitting on my warlord’s grave sounds like a good idea, too. Why should we believe the Bible? Who says the Bible is an accurate transcription of God’s word? Two-thirds of the world is non-Christian. I don’t see massive signs of God striking them dead, now do I? Maybe God’s word is already with us - maybe already engrained in human society. Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t sleep with your neighbour’s wife - this is pretty universal and makes a ton of sense! Saving my family from certain death versus denying some belief and feeling a bit guilty - the solution is clear to me. My religion goes. My family lives on. ---
**Author:** ![China\_Guy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@China\_Guy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/China_Guy)\ **Post date:** [November 10, 2001, 11:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/29 "2001-11-10T23:54:25Z")
My family comes before my god (easy to say as I don’t have a god). I think that if there is a god, she would put her big black hand on your shoulder and say “protect your family, pretend for their sake and keep me in your heart.” ---
**Author:** ![Philote](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/51bf81/32.png) [@Philote](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Philote)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/30 "2001-11-11T00:22:20Z")
“Why are there still people out there that think God is a hard ass who will strike them down if they commit the rarest of infractions?” --Phlosphr A lot of those fundamentalists truly believe that they are doing the right thing believing that way; they take the Bible literally, and the Bible illustrates several examples both of people sacrificing their families for things we wouldn’t consider them responsible for (Gaspode mentioned a few) and of people dying for their own faith (e.g., many of the apostles) or being threatened for it (e.g., the story of Shadrach, Meshach, and Abednego; Daniel 3:19-30). Taking these stories literally, it would seem that the rule is that your faith in God is something you should hold above any of the cares of the flesh. The last example I gave is one of three men who are cast into the fiery furnace for refusing to bow down to a statue–which there was no question that they did not believe was an actual deity–and they are depicted as heroes, having done the right thing, by being willing to have their lives sacrificed to avoid paying the respect of worship to anyone but God. I’m not saying that the literal interpretation is the best one, but it’s there nonetheless. I would imagine it must not be easy for some Christians of the more conservative bent to stomach what they are “told” to do in a variety of areas, but they do it because they believe it’s the right thing to do. In a way, that takes guts, and I respect at least that part of their belief. The problem I have with them in general, and this particular question is a good example of that, is that in doing what they believe is right, they trample on the rights of others. It’s not an easy thing, after all, to draw the line between doing what you think is right and respecting the rights of another who doesn’t agree with you. Unfortunately, quite a lot of these people don’t draw the line objectively. For example, if I had a daughter who engaged in prostitution, I don’t believe I would have the right to stop loving her, and CERTAINLY wouldn’t have the right to harm her, even if a strict interpretation of Biblical law would suggest that she deserved to die for that. Even if I believe I should act as God’s agent, I don’t have the right to violate her rights because I believe she violated God’s commandments. That’s between her and God, not her and God and me. This rule SHOULD apply across the board, but the problem I have with a lot of fundamentalists is that, while they probably wouldn’t kill their daughter, they WOULD violate another’s rights on a smaller issue, where the law might let them do it. Many of them simply can’t remove themselves from issues that aren’t any of their business, much to the detriment of everyone involved. Back to the subject, what clouds the answer is that it is not YOU who putting someone at risk or violating someone’s rights with your action; someone else entirely is holding a gun to the head of someone that is NOT YOU, but demanding that YOU do make a choice with that other person’s life as the consequence. The victimizer tries to shift a responsibility to you that is not and should not be yours; and yet, you can’t just say “do whatever you want, it’s your responsibility” because that’s your loved one there, and you arguably do have some responsibility to him/her. A hard-line interpretation of the Bible would seem to suggest that you should hold on to your conviction, no matter the consequent harm to you or someone you love. You’ll be doing the right thing, according to this line of thought; if that’s not much consolation, toss in that you’ll be going to Heaven and the victimizer, assuming he doesn’t repent, will get his you-know-where. But if you don’t take such a strict interpretation to it, or you’re just squeamish like I would be, what then? Probably you would go ahead and do whatever the victimizer wanted you too-- after all, caring about anyone will always leave you with the potential to be manipulated by him or for him. But then, the argument still has to be made for what God will think… if He really would cut you some slack, where’s the evidence for that? ---
**Author:** ![Kaptain\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kaptain\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaptain_K)\ **Post date:** [November 11, 2001, 1:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/31 "2001-11-11T01:55:41Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Redukter \* > \*\* > > Why should we believe the Bible? Who says the Bible is an accurate transcription of God’s word? Two-thirds of the world is non-Christian. I don’t see massive signs of God striking them dead, now do I? Maybe God’s word is already with us - maybe already engrained in human society. Don’t kill, don’t steal, don’t sleep with your neighbour’s wife - this is pretty universal and makes a ton of sense! Saving my family from certain death versus denying some belief and feeling a bit guilty - the solution is clear to me. > > \*\* ``` Dude you just Contradicted everything this Debate is about. If you don't believe in God then Who's to denounce? If you can prove that the Bible isn't Gods word then I'll prove to you that is is. No one EVER said that God would strike anyone dead for denying him! get that through your head, why does everyone keep coming back to that? It is wrong, you probably won't be hit by lightning for it though ``` ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 1:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/32 "2001-11-12T01:19:19Z")
I hope this isn’t too much of a hi-jack, but I just can’t let this go… \*\*Kaptain K wrote: If you can prove that the Bible isn’t Gods word then I’ll prove to you that is is.\*\* Okay, please prove to me, using verifable, outside sources (no self-referencing) that the Christian Bible is the word of (the J/C/I) God. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 1:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/33 "2001-11-12T01:57:57Z")
I think you just got whooshed Freyr. Note the structure of the sentence. Basically I think Cap’n K is saying that neither of the conditions will ever be met. You can never prove that the Bible isn’t God’s word and as such he’ll never have to prove it is. ---
**Author:** ![Kaptain\_K](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/aeb1de/32.png) [@Kaptain\_K](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kaptain_K)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 2:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/34 "2001-11-12T02:03:12Z")
Lol @ Gaspode 🙂 tell me whats wrong with the bible and I’ll help you understand that it’s not really a defect… Try it guys! Test me 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![DPWhite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/d26b3c/32.png) [@DPWhite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPWhite)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/35 "2001-11-12T02:20:52Z")
Thou shalt not test thy Lord thy God. None of you will ever be in this situation, so chill a bit. What do people of faith do in dire situations? Remember, bad things happen to good people, including the worst things. (Read the book of Job.) We remember that we have faith, and we trust that God will come through for us, and if not for us, then for a greater part of his plan that we may never understand. ---
**Author:** ![Gaspode](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/aeb1de/32.png) [@Gaspode](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaspode)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 3:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/36 "2001-11-12T03:57:27Z")
> [@](#): > > _Originally posted by Kaptain K \* > tell me whats wrong with the bible and I’ll help you understand that it’s not really a defect… > Try it guys! Test me_\* jab1 is going to love you. You can start right [here](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=96670). ---
**Author:** ![CheapBastid](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8baadc/32.png) [@CheapBastid](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CheapBastid)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 8:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/37 "2001-11-12T20:20:05Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kaptain K \* > \*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > \*Originally posted by Phlosphr \* > > \*\ ***cheapbastid** > > > > UUHH…Begging your pardon, but did Jesus renounce his faith?? Jesus was a Messiah…not a common man protecting his wife and child at gun point. > > > > Did Abraham renounce his religion and God to save his family? I ask this because I do not know, not to prove a point yet… \*\* > > Agreed… as a matter of fact abraham did not denounce his faith when his own God told him to Kill his son (I’m not sure where it is in the bible, sorry)And abraham was about to do it, but the lord saw his faith and stopped him. It was a test that’s all… Now I’m not saying that if Someone told u to Deny God and convert to a different religion that if you wouldn’t that God would say "OK boys good show! By the way dude! You passed the test! You Love me! " No it wouldn’t happen like that… But In reply to Phlosphr’s statements about God cutting you slack; He wouldn’t, theres no if ands or buts about it. God wants you to be wholely Devoted to him no matter what and if you can’t deal with that then you need to check what’s wrong. BUT god IS a forgiving God and I’m not saying that he wouldn’t forgive you for Denying him (after all peter did it 3 times in one night!) I’m just saying that To deny god would be to Sin… Therefore making it wrong and offensive to God.\*\* As I said, this sounds like the unforgiving and hard task masterish god that would expect you to be killed and sacrifice your family so he doesn’t look bad. > [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Kaptain K \* > **THink about it, This God was loving enough to lay HIS son’s life on the line for us, can’t we do the same? you gotta know what’s gonna happen and where they’re going (your family, etc.) before it happens. Witness, do what ever it takes to tell them about the love of christ but I’m telling you that you’re wrong when you say that it’s alright to Denounce Gods name in order to save a life I don’t care who they are or How close you are to them. > You could always offer your life insead anyways 🙂 > Think about it… 😉** This continues to prove my point. [Kiss Hank’s Ass](http://www.jhuger.com/kisshank.mv) 24/7 or he’ll kick the sh!t out of you. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 12, 2001, 11:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/38 "2001-11-12T23:56:33Z")
im truly enjoying “kiss hank’s ass”! what a hoot! it seems to me all the “people of faith” would have to do to save thier ass and the ass’s of thier familys would be to simply lie! when the heat dies down, scamper off to confession and get a clean slate again. the whole scene sounds kinda wishy-washy, man! ---
**Author:** ![Freyr](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/freyr/32/5763_2.png) [@Freyr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Freyr)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 12:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/39 "2001-11-13T00:13:13Z")
\*\*Gaspode wrote: I think you just got whooshed Freyr. Note the structure of the sentence. Basically I think Cap’n K is saying that neither of the conditions will ever be met. You can never prove that the Bible isn’t God’s word and as such he’ll never have to prove it is.\*\* While I agree with you about the structure of the sentence, I disagree about the conclusion. I think it can be pointed to, historically, that the various books of the Bible were written by humans. That’s agreed upon. but by making the claim that they’re **THE WORD OF (the J/C/I) GOD** I think it falls to those people who make such a claim to prove it. I would agree, some parts **MAY** be divinely inspired, but which parts and how do you draw the distinction? ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [November 13, 2001, 1:29am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207/40 "2001-11-13T01:29:25Z")
In the bible it says that self sacrifice to help other people is a good thing. In this case lying to save your family is sacrificing yourself to help others. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-case-scenario-people-of-faith-what-would-you-do/92207.md?page=3)