# The worst Iraq photos yet... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [May 20, 2004, 2:37am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105 "2004-05-20T02:37:25Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 18\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 11:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/41 "2004-05-20T23:27:38Z")
**Liberal / Libertarian / whatever your name is this week** , please read the title of this thread as “The Worst Photos of Prisoner Abuses in Iraq by US Military Personnel That Are Currently in the Public Domain”, and don’t be a jerk. ---
**Author:** ![Bob\_Scene](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/e19adc/32.png) [@Bob\_Scene](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bob_Scene)\ **Post date:** [May 20, 2004, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/42 "2004-05-20T23:57:54Z")
I’m really impressed by the mental gymnastics that certain people (fewer and fewer all the time, it seems) have gone through to put a positive spin on the Iraq prisoner abuse photos. As far as I know, even Donald Rumsfeld, who’s widely being blamed for the situation, hasn’t tried to downplay the seriousness and un-American-ness of what has happened. He **might** have given orders that ultimately led to the abuses, but I get the impression that even he never wanted naked prisoners piled into a pyramid while some scary young woman smiled and gave a thumbs-up sign. If even Rumsfeld can admit that he’s shocked and disgusted by the situation, why do other supposedly conservative Americans (especially ones who make a big point out of claiming to mistrust the government) go WAY out of their way to justify it? ---
**Author:** ![Mtgman](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/b5a626/32.png) [@Mtgman](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mtgman)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/43 "2004-05-21T00:12:16Z")
> [@Cisco](#): > > [http://www.prisonexp.org/](http://www.prisonexp.org/) > Holy shit :eek: :eek: :eek: > [@](#): > > The guards were given no specific training on how to be guards. Instead they were free, within limits, to do whatever they thought was necessary to maintain law and order in the prison and to command the respect of the prisoners. The guards made up their own set of rules, which they then carried into effect under the supervision of Warden David Jaffe, an undergraduate from Stanford University. They were warned, however, of the potential seriousness of their mission and of the possible dangers in the situation they were about to enter, as, of course, are real guards who voluntarily take such a dangerous job. [Hmmm](http://www.thesmokinggun.com/graphics/pdf/0505041report.pdf) > [@](#): > > [pg 10]The 800th MP (I/R) units did not receive Internment/Resettlement (I/R) and > corrections specific training during their mobilization period. Corrections training > is only on the METL of two MP (I/R) Confinement Battalions throughout the > Army, one currently serving in Afghanistan, and elements of the other are at > Camp Arifjan, Kuwait. MP units supporting JTF-GTMO received ten days of > training in detention facility operations, to include two days of unarmed self-defense, > training in interpersonal communication skills, forced cell moves, and > correctional officer safety. > … > [pg 19-20] > (U) I find that prior to its deployment to Iraq for Operation Iraqi Freedom, the > 320th MP Battalion and the 372nd MP Company had received no training in > detention/internee operations. I also find that very little instruction or training was > provided to MP personnel on the applicable rules of the Geneva Convention Relative > to the Treatment of Prisoners of War, FM 27-10, AR 190-8, or FM 3-19.40. > Moreover, I find that few, if any, copies of the Geneva Conventions were ever made > available to MP personnel or detainees. (ANNEXES 21-24, 33, and multiple witness > statements) Enjoy, Steven ---
**Author:** ![Briny\_Deep](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/briny_deep/32/17188_2.png) [@Briny\_Deep](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Briny_Deep)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 4:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/44 "2004-05-21T04:28:32Z")
**Lib** , this is so redundant; others have said it better than I; but really, no one has argued on these Boards that Saddam’s abuses were okay. It’s about _our_ abuses. We, who were supposed to be the Liberators, with rose petals, &c. It was incumbent upon us to act like the Good Guys, and we have failed. Completely separate issue from anything Saddam ever did. No need to prove he was worse than us; we already know that. His atrocities don’t make us Good Enough, though, automatically. We needed to be practically perfect, and we utterly failed in that. ---
**Author:** ![Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e36b37/32.png) [@Airman\_Doors\_USAF](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airman_Doors_USAF)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 5:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/45 "2004-05-21T05:14:31Z")
> [@RTFirefly](#): > > Indeed: > > So we know that an experiment such as this **produces** guards who act like this out of apparently ordinary, well-adjusted people, and in fairly short order, too. You want to know what the real horror is? In spite of the fact that you know what’s coming, it’s been proven time and again that at least half of the people subjected to the experiment will push the button (Milgram) or torture the inmates (Stanford) anyway even with prior knowledge. It’s because of this that these experiments are now considered unethical and are basically forbidden. So, what the hell do we do? I’m at a loss. We can’t not trust jailers to do their jobs professionally, otherwise everyone has to provide oversight and efficiency simply disappears, the old “Too many cooks” adage. On the other hand, if you leave the jailers to their own devices, there’s a 50% chance that you’ll have abused inmates, and that’s absolutely unacceptable. I dunno, guys. Frankly, I’m confused. ---
**Author:** ![Atticus\_Finch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ec9cab/32.png) [@Atticus\_Finch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Atticus_Finch)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 5:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/46 "2004-05-21T05:27:31Z")
> [@Airman Doors](#): > > \ > > So, what the hell do we do? I’m at a loss. We can’t not trust jailers to do their jobs professionally, otherwise everyone has to provide oversight and efficiency simply disappears, the old “Too many cooks” adage. On the other hand, if you leave the jailers to their own devices, there’s a 50% chance that you’ll have abused inmates, and that’s absolutely unacceptable. > > I dunno, guys. Frankly, I’m confused. Well, I think you have a false dichotomy going between “leaving to their own devices” and “too many cooks” - there’s a big space for options in between. If anything, I’d lean towards the “too many cooks” end anyway - I don’t think “efficiency” really deserves equal status with preventing human rights abuses. Besides, the real issue here is not the lack of immediate supervision to counter the (frighteningly natural) tendency to abuse one’s authority. It’s the fact that this kind of psychological and physical torture was ordered from above, even if noone actually said “sodomise that guy with a broomstick”. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 6:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/47 "2004-05-21T06:30:48Z")
> [@](#): > > We can’t not trust jailers to do their jobs professionally, otherwise everyone has to provide oversight and efficiency simply disappears, the old “Too many cooks” adage. On the other hand, if you leave the jailers to their own devices, there’s a 50% chance that you’ll have abused inmates, and that’s absolutely unacceptable. There IS supposed to be some oversight, though. Not an unreasonable amount - just commanding officers doing their jobs and the Red Cross making their visits, which apparently sometimes they were denied. ---
**Author:** ![yojimbo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/yojimbo/32/232_2.png) [@yojimbo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/yojimbo)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 10:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/48 "2004-05-21T10:34:00Z")
A new set of images to make you proud. [http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43783-2004May20.html](http://www.washingtonpost.com/wp-dyn/articles/A43783-2004May20.html) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 10:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/49 "2004-05-21T10:48:19Z")
Can somebody please explain the whole ‘thumbs up’ thing to me - it just looks very oddly unnatural - I mean, I do realise these photos are very much ‘posed’, but there’s still something about them that I don’t understand and can’t quite put my finger on. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 10:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/50 "2004-05-21T10:52:29Z")
> [@lambchops](#): > > **Liberal / Libertarian / whatever your name is this week** , please read the title of this thread as “The Worst Photos of Prisoner Abuses in Iraq by US Military Personnel That Are Currently in the Public Domain”, and don’t be a jerk. My name is Liberal, and you should write your titles the way you mean them. Don’t be a troll. ---
**Author:** ![tagos](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/bbe5ce/32.png) [@tagos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tagos)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 11:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/51 "2004-05-21T11:03:12Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Can somebody please explain the whole ‘thumbs up’ thing to me - it just looks very oddly unnatural - I mean, I do realise these photos are very much ‘posed’, but there’s still something about them that I don’t understand and can’t quite put my finger on. I think they’re imitating the Fearless Misleader’ s style, it seems to be one of his favourites. ---
**Author:** ![leander](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/bcef8e/32.png) [@leander](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/leander)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/52 "2004-05-21T11:48:31Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > My name is Liberal, and you should write your titles the way you mean them. Don’t be a troll. You are such an asshole. Sorry your attempt to derail this thread failed (yet again). Now run along you batshit attention whore…nobody wants to see another one of your trademark meltdowns. ---
**Author:** ![Desmostylus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c57346/32.png) [@Desmostylus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Desmostylus)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/53 "2004-05-21T12:14:53Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > My name is Liberal, and you should write your titles the way you mean them. Don’t be a troll. I think I was right. [**Crazy Fuck**](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?p=4864143#post4864143) would have been a much better choice of username. ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/54 "2004-05-21T12:37:18Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Can somebody please explain the whole ‘thumbs up’ thing to me - it just looks very oddly unnatural - I mean, I do realise these photos are very much ‘posed’, but there’s still something about them that I don’t understand and can’t quite put my finger on. It looks to me as if the soldiers are just affirming their group identity: This is who we are. This is what we do, and we are good at it. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/55 "2004-05-21T19:07:25Z")
> [@leander](#): > > You are such an asshole. Sorry your attempt to derail this thread failed (yet again). Now run along you batshit attention whore…nobody wants to see another one of your trademark meltdowns. You really shouldn’t be so pissy. ---
**Author:** ![RedFury](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/ec9cab/32.png) [@RedFury](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RedFury)\ **Post date:** [May 21, 2004, 7:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/56 "2004-05-21T19:26:16Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Can somebody please explain the whole ‘thumbs up’ thing to me - it just looks very oddly unnatural - I mean, I do realise these photos are very much ‘posed’, but there’s still something about them that I don’t understand and can’t quite put my finger on. The way I undertand it, the ‘thumbs up’ gesture has a totally different meaning in the MENA region. [What does a 'thumbs up " mean in Iraq?](http://slate.msn.com/id/2080812/) > [@](#): > > **It’s true that “thumbs up” traditionally translates as the foulest of Iraqi insults—the most straightforward interpretation is "Up yours, pal!"** In keeping with their actions, I have little doubt that the a-holes shown in those pictures knew the exact symbolism of their gesture in Iraq. Winning hearts and minds…one butchered Iraqi after another. ---
**Author:** ![Coldfire](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a587f6/32.png) [@Coldfire](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Coldfire)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/57 "2004-05-22T11:10:57Z")
> [@Liberal](#): > > My name is Liberal, and you should write your titles the way you mean them. Don’t be a troll. **Liberal** , official warning. You are not to call people trolls on this message board, and you know it. Moreover, your pretending not to understand what this thread is about is really fucking annoying. Yeah, we get it. “Photos from Iraq” can be interpreted more broadly than just the recent prisoner abuse alone. However, to anyone with half a brain, it’s clear that’s the matter being discussed. Knock it off. ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [May 22, 2004, 11:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105/58 "2004-05-22T11:24:49Z")
> [@Mangetout](#): > > Can somebody please explain the whole ‘thumbs up’ thing to me - it just looks very oddly unnatural - I mean, I do realise these photos are very much ‘posed’, but there’s still something about them that I don’t understand and can’t quite put my finger on. I still can’t get over that they allowed themselves to photographed this way. I mean it’s one thing to wretched enough to do this kind of shit. It’s another to be stupid enough to participate in it’s documentation. Something about that… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-worst-iraq-photos-yet/246105.md?page=2)