To me, it would look like our military is on the ball.
they are reporting explosions in afganastan.
I disagree. If it happenend, and I stress “IF,” the government would probably admit it because it would be rather difficult to hide. People might have seen the fighters. The ground crew would know the missiles were expended. Air traffic control radars would have spotted the fighters during the whole flight. For one thing, you could easily pinpoint whether there are any nearby AF bases that have fighter aircraft that could have made it in time.
Besides, it would be the right choice. A difficult one, but right nonetheless. I think it’s more likely that the crew or passengers fought back, either causing the plane to crash in the struggle, or choosing to kill themselves rather than allow the hijacking to continue.
FYI, Barbara Olson was on the plane that hit the Pentagon. The reports about the Pennsylvania plane come from a different, as yet unsubstantiated, source.
I heard people talking on the BBC about the legality of shooting down civilian airplane. They were discussing if anything could have been done to prevent the WTC/Pentagon tragedies and it would seem that shooting down civilian planes would be illegal.
I have no cite and only two journalists on TV, so I could be wrong, but if illegal, then wouldn’t procedure require the act carried out and then denied. I am not a conspiracy nut, I just sincerely think this is how it would go down. Any thoughts?
Not illegal, k.os, as the planes were no longer “civilian”, but “aggressors”, once they became hijacked.
Ah! I knew there had to be something to this. I guess it is unlikely the plane was shot down, then. Still, if they shot it down, would they own up to it? It’s not like the US has hidden anything from it’s people before. Who said “…The first casualty of war is truth…”? The US is at heighteined military alert (Delta), might that not change accountability to the media? If they did shoot it down, they probably don’t want whoever is responsible for this to know, just yet, since there can be an advantage to witholding (sp?) this information at this point in time. Later, the gvt can retract, explaining that national security made keeping that fact confidential necessary until this crisis was solved. I think the public would understand and agree it was the right thing to do, in the given circumstances.
I don’t think it makes a bit of difference whether it was shot down or just came down. Sitting here, thousands of miles away in Budapest, we heard on Hungarian radio that F-16s (plural) were being scrambled to follow another possibly hijacked jet. I am unsure of what the source of the Hungarian news report was. I never heard any follow-ups to this report. At that point, we all assumed that it would probably have to be shot down. What else is there to do? There’s not much time to think, and at this point we should be thinking damage control.
I personally believe the US military is completely capable of doing such a thing. Why not? I think at such a crisis point, one must think in a utilitarian fashion, and if it’s 56 lives versus say hundreds or thousands, numbers, unfortunately, have to win out.
However, assessing the situation, I can’t say either way whether I think the plane was shot down. Either situation seems just as plausable to me. I think the majority of American people would understand if the US took the decision to disable that threat. Isn’t the fact that those people were going to die anyway? Maybe it’s a bit fatalist, but given the circumstances I cannot see any other outcome. So shoot it down, and just count those bodies, rather than add those bodies to whatever building or installation they were heading towards.
k.os, I have not seen any cites yet either. I do know that when asked point blank about whether the plane was shot down, the military spokesman did not say “No,” he said “It’s classified.”
It’s not like there was any doubt about the crisis. Three planes had already crashed, and this one had said it was headed for DC.
If it was indeed shot down, I think the gov. is making a mistake by not admitting it, because I think a majority of us would say that they did what they had to do. The same majority is gonna be pissed for being lied to.
It is important to remember that during times of crisis like this, rumors will circulate and even be reported as news. Even the news media was reporting rumors as fact.
Yesterday, NBC was reporting a 5th hijacked plane, but then it turned out it wasn’t hijacked at all.
On our local news, it was reported that the Federal Building in Battle Creek was voluntarily closing. Somehow a coworker of mine got it in her head that the terrorists were going to crash a plane in Grand Rapids from this report. I explained to her that there were Federal Buildings all over the country that were being closed and that this was nothing out of the ordinary given the circumstances, but nothing I said would convince her otherwise.
Yes, rumors are flying around right now. That’s why it’s important not to panic and look at the facts as they unfold.
Just as an fyi, I started a similar thread in IMHO, though in hindsight, I should have posted here:
http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showthread.php?threadid=86667
Okay, I’m a little punchy today but I find that amusing. Yesterday, when a newsman described the Sears Tower as “high on the list of possible terrorist targets” a co-worker snorted, “They have a list?”
I said, “Be happy we live near such a big town because I’ll bet that some newsguy on some small town station is describing the tallest buildings in the vicinity, grain elevators down by the tracks, as possible terrorist targets because they are trying to fill time and don’t really have anything to say.”
But who had heard of Oklahoma City?
CBS has been airing an interview with an eyewitness to the PA crash since Tuesday evening. He said that the plane “nose dived” into the ground and something to the effect that it didn’t look or sound damaged. Of course, somebody somewhere is going to say that he was a plant or paid-off as part of a coverup. I’m sure he’ll be on again. The question about sounding damaged comes at the very end of the clip they’ve been showing. Anybody else seen what I’m talking about?
I heard a couple of eyewitness descriptions yesterday early afternoon.
There was no mention of any problems with the plane, just erratic movement (dive, then pull out, then dive, then level out, then turn and nosedive into the ground IIRC).
Sounded to me like the pilot may well have chosen to ditch the plane and managed to do so despite a fight over control. If he’d heard what had already happened to the other hijacked planes, that could certainly have seemed to be the best thing to do while he still had a chance to do something.
I saw two separate men interviewed about the downed plane. I didn’t recall the statement about it not being damaged, but maybe they aren’t plants for a cover-up. That area looked sparsely populated and the man you are talking about may have already heard about the rumor that it was shot down and my be referring to that.
Just a thought…
Just a thought: what is the range on an F-16’s weapons? I looked at FAS’ page on the F-16 and found out that it’s Air-to-Air Missiles (AMRAAM Slammer,Sidewinder) have a respective range of 20+ miles and 10 to 18 miles respectively. This could mean that eyewitnesses don’t need to have seen F-16s for them to have been involved.
According to this CNN report, some of the passengers learned what was happening with the other aircraft and attempted to regain control of the plane from the hijackers. Shortly thereafter the plane went down.
OK, that solves it. Jeremy Glick is a hero. No sarcasm here, I sincerely mean it. I read the story and it made me cry. This is the real nature of courage. My condolences to his wife on her horrible loss. If you read the story, it says he was flying with his 2 month old child Emerson. Heartbreaking.
ABC News anchor Sam Donaldson just reported that there is an unconfirmed report out of Afghanistan that bin Laden has been placed under house arrest by the Taliban. I, for one, hope this is not just another rumor.
I’m not sure it’s worth responding to all this… but anyway. AMRAAM range I think is much higher, approaching 60 miles, assuming a good radar lock. The sidewinder is around 10 to 18. At least according to Janes’ USAF Fighters.
But…This plane did not scatter over miles of ground like it would if it had been blown up at a high altitude. Therefore, even if we buy into this “theory,” it had to have been shot down at a low altitude. Thus necessitating a closer range because it is more difficult to pick out targets on radar when they are near the ground. NOT TO MENTION…you would obviously want visual identification if at all possible in such a situation. Shooting down the wrong airline would be bad.
There is no evidence for this.