# The x86 Move: Is Apple Doomed? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [August 16, 2005, 11:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251 "2005-08-16T11:41:06Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![MAGunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@MAGunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAGunter)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 7:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/41 "2005-08-18T07:48:20Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > What a quality person. You’re a criminal. It’s pathetic. “People” like you make life harder on those of us who aren’t dishonest and immoral. I won’t disagree on the criminal front, as by law it’s a crime. Do I personally view it as immoral? No, I don’t-but I have my reasons why (regarding music) which I’ve said ad infinitum. It has a lot to do with working at a record label and an artist management company in my youth. I’m sorry you feel it’s making life harder for you. To me, it makes me lose respect for people that are willing to shell out $15 for a CD when the artist is getting $0.05 out of that. It just further’s the Major Label’s view that people are idiots and will buy anything at any price so long as they package it and make it pretty. It’s the same view that leads to Foo Fighter’s concert tix (among many others) costing $40 for crap seats when just 8 years ago I could see Rage Against the Machine anywhere for under $20 and get $10 shirts. I’m sick of getting raped for buying a CD, and then raped for seeing the bands. > [@](#): > > All PC counterparts are crap, and run on Windows, which is crap. Linux is even worse. Absolute garbage. I hate both of them. It is a staggering pain to use Windows at my office. Like nails on a chalkboard. That’s how I felt using Macs at my last office job. That said, I think the majority of the world uses PCs and Windows, so you can join the Apple elite in that uphill battle. > [@](#): > > I’m not overpaying. Because of the immense comparative value of the software that comes with the Mac, my Mac is a bargain compared to the run of the mill PC with its junk OS, garbage software and ugly UI. Come on now, we both know that Windows is nothing more than a thinly veiled copy of the Mac UI. As for a bargain, no it’s not. If you want to talk Customer Service, then that’s fine. The fact that you _need_ customer service is indicative to me of the fact that you don’t know much about computers. I can upgrade my PC component by component for a far cheaper price than you, and I can buy it at an initially cheaper price as well-all that for the same amount of power. If my PC starts becoming outdated, I can go buy a new video card, or a new mobo/cpu and with a little finetuning by up and running at the industry standard. With a Mac you start out a little above said standard and slowly lose ground until the point where you have to shell out $2k for a new Mac and repeat the process. I think you’re the one being stubborn, really. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 10:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/42 "2005-08-18T10:01:00Z")
- - - As far as the osx86 piracy argument goes–a poster on Slashdot made a good point: if Apple had been all that concerned about people hacking and pirating their operating system, then they should have gone with something totally-in-house again and shouldn’t have based it on BSD in the first place. - As for if _I_ will be doing any of that piracy, I think not. I don’t really need an OSX86 pc for anything; all the software I need I already have running on Windows PC’s, or can do on Linux if need be. I don’t want to hassle with the downloading or cracking and then spend $550 on a decently-equipped PC to run it all. … _ **IF** _ Apple decides to sell OSX86 fully-enabled on generic PC hardware for not more than $200 or $250 dollars, I might consider buying a legit copy later on and trying it all–but I just don’t think the UI business that users gush about is much of an improvement, and for bulletproof surfing I can download Fedora legally that works on a 6-year-old PC I already own. ~ ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 11:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/43 "2005-08-18T11:34:56Z")
> [@MAGunter](#): > > I’m sorry you feel it’s making life harder for you. To me, it makes me lose respect for people that are willing to shell out $15 for a CD when the artist is getting $0.05 out of that. It just further’s the Major Label’s view that people are idiots and will buy anything at any price so long as they package it and make it pretty. I see… so by stealing a product, you are challenging the major labels’ stranglehold on the market! You’re Robin Hood! You’re not just stealing because it’s cheap and easy, but because you have a moral compulsion to do so! In fact, it would be immoral NOT to steal! Am I right, people? Let’s go do some smash-and-grabs! > [@](#): > > That said, I think the majority of the world uses PCs and Windows, so you can join the Apple elite in that uphill battle. Argumentum ad populum. > [@](#): > > If you want to talk Customer Service, then that’s fine. The fact that you _need_ customer service is indicative to me of the fact that you don’t know much about computers. Yes, we are computer illiterate and that’s why we use Macs. Precisely. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 11:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/44 "2005-08-18T11:47:58Z")
Perhaps the argument about pirated music and movies, and the fallacious equating of copyright infringement to “smash-and-grabs”, belongs in a different thread? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 2:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/45 "2005-08-18T14:10:54Z")
> [@DougC](#): > > - > - > - As far as the osx86 piracy argument goes–a poster on Slashdot made a good point: if Apple had been all that concerned about people hacking and pirating their operating system, then they should have gone with something totally-in-house again and shouldn’t have based it on BSD in the first place. You do realise that Darwin is just the core OS with the Mach kernal. Right? And that there are multiple and essential layers on top of that to make OSX proper? Install Darwin for x86 on your PC some time. See how much it looks and functions like MacOS. [Cite](http://www.apple.com/macosx/techspecs/). ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/46 "2005-08-18T16:13:31Z")
> [@MAGunter](#): > > I won’t disagree on the criminal front, as by law it’s a crime. Do I personally view it as immoral? No, I don’t-but I have my reasons why (regarding music) which I’ve said ad infinitum. It has a lot to do with working at a record label and an artist management company in my youth. Wah. That’s a rationalization, not a reason. “Me want free music, me take it, me say bad men do bad things to make me feel ‘right.’” I have no sympathy for bands who signed bad deals. They signed on, they can deal with it. > [@](#): > > Come on now, we both know that Windows is nothing more than a thinly veiled copy of the Mac UI. Not even close. On basically every level, and in every specific circumstance, the Windows UI is worse than the Mac UI. Particularly with all that vomit-inducing “task based” garbage Windows is full of nowadays. Yay! A little puppy to help me find my volunteer status report! That makes me SO MUCH MORE efficient! > [@](#): > > As for a bargain, no it’s not. Yes, it is. It’s about comparative value of the entire package, not just the value of the hardware underneath. The Mac OS adds so much inherent value to the system that it outweighs all other factors you mention. > [@](#): > > If you want to talk Customer Service, then that’s fine. The fact that you _need_ customer service is indicative to me of the fact that you don’t know much about computers. Excuse me? Where did I mention Customer Service? I don’t need to call customer service. I know a great deal about computers. Where the fuck do you get off telling me that I don’t? > [@](#): > > I can upgrade my PC component by component for a far cheaper price than you, and I can buy it at an initially cheaper price as well-all that for the same amount of power. What components would I want to upgrade? To my current Mac I’ve added 2 GB of RAM and another 400 GB of hard disk, and it cost me the exact same that it would on a PC. As for the initial price, I get what I pay for: the Mac OS is more than worth any premium. > [@](#): > > With a Mac you start out a little above said standard and slowly lose ground until the point where you have to shell out $2k for a new Mac and repeat the process. Very few Macs cost $2,000. My last Mac cost a bit more than that, the three Macs I bought before that cost significantly less than that. ---
**Author:** ![spectrum](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9fc29f/32.png) [@spectrum](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/spectrum)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 4:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/47 "2005-08-18T16:15:44Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > It’s quite likely that such a machine _will_ run Mac OS. If the development preview version of OSx86 can be hacked to run on standard PC hardware, the release version probably will be too, unless Apple decides to throw some meaningful proprietary hardware into the boxes they’re going to sell. The developer boxes are NOT the shipping units. Word is that Apple’s not going to use BIOS, but some new Intel thing (forget the name), which would serve as hook to block installation on some lousy Dell. > [@](#): > > If I were a Mac person, I’d be appalled at the idea of paying top dollar for an Intel Mac if it turned out to be nothing more than an Intel PC with a special flag that told MacOS I paid top dollar for it. Why? If I pay that premium, then I’m supporting the development of the only usable operating system in the world. I’ll happily pay more to own a Mac, because the fact that it’s a Mac makes it inherently more valuable than a PC running Windows. ---
**Author:** ![Bytegeist](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/9dc877/32.png) [@Bytegeist](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bytegeist)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/48 "2005-08-18T17:02:52Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > Word is that Apple’s not going to use BIOS, but some **new Intel thing (forget the name)**, which would serve as hook to block installation on some lousy Dell. Possibly Intel’s [EFI](http://www.intel.com/technology/efi/), but I don’t believe Apple has made any announcement about that yet. ---
**Author:** ![tomndebb](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/b9e5f3/32.png) [@tomndebb](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tomndebb)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/49 "2005-08-18T17:21:10Z")
**MAGunter** , DO NOT celebrate or encourage illegal activity on this board. DO NOT start one more senseless Mac vs PC shit-flinging fight in this Forum. **spectrum** and **nameless** , your comments have not yet crossed the line: see that they do not. [/Moderator Mode] ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/50 "2005-08-18T17:21:56Z")
For those who think Apple actually wants people to hack its OS, I give you [this](http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1238). Not only do they not want people doing it, they don’t even want other people to see it. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/51 "2005-08-18T17:43:08Z")
> [@Loopydude](#): > > For those who think Apple actually wants people to hack its OS, I give you [this](http://www.appleinsider.com/article.php?id=1238). Not only do they not want people doing it, they don’t even want other people to see it. Yeah, for a company that says “Think Different,” Apple is notorious for wanting totalitarian control over every aspect of the Macintosh experience (as evidence, consider the termination of the Macintosh clones and the myriad lawsuits against various look-and-feel ripoffs). I don’t blame them; opening it up much more could dilute both their profits and the quality of the systems. At any rate, I don’t buy the conspiracy theory that they’re promoting this kind of behavior; it would be totally out of character for them. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/52 "2005-08-18T17:45:00Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Perhaps the argument about pirated music and movies, and the fallacious equating of copyright infringement to “smash-and-grabs”, belongs in a different thread? [QUOTE=tomndebb] **spectrum** and **nameless** , your comments have not yet crossed the line: see that they do not. [QUOTE] My apologies. I will step back from the abyss. ---
**Author:** ![DougC](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7feea3/32.png) [@DougC](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DougC)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/53 "2005-08-18T18:13:00Z")
> [@](#): > > …For those who think Apple actually wants people to hack its OS, I give you this. Not only do they not want people doing it, they don’t even want other people to see it… - - - Well the odd thing here is that Apple seems to have _only_ insisted that the **videos** be taken down. The instructions on how to do it all are still posted, there and everywhere else: [http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=393](http://forum.osx86project.org/index.php?showtopic=393) ~ ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/54 "2005-08-18T18:47:07Z")
It’s perfectly legal to provide written instructions to do a lot of illegal things for “educational purposes” (which is why you can still read exerpts from "The Anarchist’s Cookbook), yet it is entirely illegal to actually follow those instructions. Hence, a film of someone running the developer OSX on a non-Apple box is a video record of an act that is in direct violation of Apple’s restrictions on the use of said OS by developers licensed to purchase and utilize it. I don’t see how it could be illegal to write about it. I’m not congizant of all the potential legal issues in the case of the cracked developer OSX, but I imagine Apple’s actions reflect what their counsel feels is within their power persue in the courts, at least in theory. ---
**Author:** ![rjung](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/45deac/32.png) [@rjung](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rjung)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 7:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/55 "2005-08-18T19:24:29Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Yeah, for a company that says “Think Different,” Apple is notorious for wanting totalitarian control over every aspect of the Macintosh experience Ye gods, a company whose markting department says one thing and whose business practices says another? :eek: 😉 ---
**Author:** ![MAGunter](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/a87d85/32.png) [@MAGunter](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MAGunter)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/56 "2005-08-18T23:07:36Z")
I’ll bow out of this thread per the moderator request, as I know of no way to discuss music piracy besides celebrating it. Thanks for the fun though **Spectrum** , i was hard headed intentionally to provoke a good response from you, and enjoyed the dialogue. You’ve got great points on the Macs, and you’re right in a lot of ways. But we’ll never agree on piracy. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 18, 2005, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/57 "2005-08-18T23:09:07Z")
> [@spectrum](#): > > The developer boxes are NOT the shipping units. Word is that Apple’s not going to use BIOS, but some new Intel thing (forget the name), which would serve as hook to block installation on some lousy Dell. Sure, until someone comes up with a tiny boot loader that emulates it, 48 hours after OSx86 is released. I don’t forsee any success coming from tiny changes to minor components if they’re just changing things to be different, instead of adding real functionality that’s hard to duplicate some other way. > [@](#): > > Why? If I pay that premium, then I’m supporting the development of the only usable operating system in the world. I’ll happily pay more to own a Mac, because the fact that it’s a Mac makes it inherently more valuable than a PC running Windows. What makes it inherently more valuable than a Windows PC is the fact that it runs MacOS, not the Apple logo or the extra few hundred bucks you paid. And the only connection between “runs MacOS” and “has an Apple logo” is Apple’s choice to deliberately cripple their software so it doesn’t work on essentially identical hardware. I already have a perfectly fine computer; I’d rather support development by paying directly for the product I _want_ developed. It’s like if Shell came up with a new blend of gas that made cars twice as efficient. You take your Honda Civic down to the Shell station, only to discover the nozzle won’t fit in your tank, but they’ll happily sell you a Shellmobile that looks suspiciously like a Civic. You buy one for 50% more than you paid for your previous car, take it to an independent mechanic, and discover that it’s exactly the same as your old Civic except for the nameplate, the gas filler neck, and the upholstery. Now, maybe you’d be happy with that scenario, but I’d be asking why I couldn’t just pay more per gallon for the gas and put it in my old car, especially since all my knowledge of how engines work suggested (and someone else’s experiments had proved) that it would work just as well in any car if not for that lockout. ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:04am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/58 "2005-08-19T00:04:57Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > Now, maybe you’d be happy with that scenario, but I’d be asking why I couldn’t just pay more per gallon for the gas and put it in my old car, especially since all my knowledge of how engines work suggested (and someone else’s experiments had proved) that it would work just as well in any car if not for that lockout. Right, but the company that makes this awesome gas is very small. And by making a buisness move like that, they could get crushed by the other, larger oil companies, and then never make their awesome gas again. And the larger companies, having a monopoly, might not ever care enough to try to make gas that good again. I am done stretching your analogy to the breaking point now. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/59 "2005-08-19T00:09:11Z")
> [@nameless](#): > > Right, but the company that makes this awesome gas is very small. And by making a buisness move like that, they could get crushed by the other, larger oil companies, and then never make their awesome gas again. That doesn’t make sense. How would allowing MacOS to run on _more_ computers cause Apple to be crushed? ---
**Author:** ![nameless](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/779978/32.png) [@nameless](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nameless)\ **Post date:** [August 19, 2005, 12:22am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251/60 "2005-08-19T00:22:01Z")
> [@Mr2001](#): > > That doesn’t make sense. How would allowing MacOS to run on _more_ computers cause Apple to be crushed? Apple makes its money on high hardware margins. It makes almost nothing on software. Were Apple to permit the installation of OS X on all systems, here is how I think things would shake out– [ol] [li]Apple’s hardware sales plummet as people buy cheaper PC boxes and install OS X on it. The percentage of people buying into Apple for the hardware is, I suspect, lower than the percentage buying for the software.[/li][li]Because they cannot ship low cost high volume systems as Dell and its ilk do, Apple is driven out of the hardware buisness and compensates for the revenue loss by increasing price on OS X.[/li][li]Microsoft outcompetes Apple by virtue of their greater size and influence, and the fact that they can afford to sell their OS cheaper for longer than Apple can.[/li][li]Apple goes out of buisness.[/li][/ol] Which step in this cascade do you disagree with? [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-x86-move-is-apple-doomed/317251.md?page=4)