# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/181 "2012-04-04T14:09:59Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > in response to a lot of posts above, if you listen to the 911 tapes, Martin’s “suspicious activity” was that he "_looked like he was messed up. on drugs or something."_ > > to clarify, Zimmerman called 911 stating **this kid looked messed up** , “_probably on drugs._” he wasn’t skulking around parked cars or house windows, not even by Zimmerman’s account. Zimmerman didn’t suspect him of _any crime_ or _OF committing any crimes_ other than “_being under the influence of (something)_.” > > the use of deadly force against someone because “they look like they are on drugs” doesn’t even qualify as property protection. That neighborhood had a series of break ins , stolen lap tops etc. Several did involve young black males. One of Zimmerman’s neighbors was on TV the other night saying that ALL the break ins were young black males. I’ve yet to see if that’s true. IMO Zimmerman was convinced that Martin was one of those young black males who were doing the break ins. You can tell by the words he chose including “These Assholes always get away” I’ve also read that some of Zimmerman’s neighbors had complained about him going a little to far in his NW. Following people and questioning them. A former co worker said he was Jeckyl and Hyde and was fired from his security job for being to aggressive. IMO Zimmerman questioned Martin aggressively, perhaps tried to detain him and they struggled. Martin was killed. If Zimmerman was the aggressor, he’s guilty. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/182 "2012-04-04T14:12:39Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > … if you ignore the eyewitness that says Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman beating him up… If MArtin was the Aggressor, then MArtin was defending himself from an armed stranger , and Zimmerman is still guilty. You don’t get to provoke a fight and then shoot someone when you are losing. ---
**Author:** ![Kearsen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/82dd89/32.png) [@Kearsen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kearsen)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/183 "2012-04-04T14:20:29Z")
> [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](#): > > I might stop thinking you’re a racist if you can point to a single post in this thread demanding that Zimmerman be convicted, much less lynched. Wait, what? To be classified as a ‘non-racist’, I have to admit that I’d like to see a possibly innocent man convicted or lynched? ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/184 "2012-04-04T14:20:50Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > You don’t get to provoke a fight and then shoot someone when you are losing. I think the Stand Your Ground proponents are arguing, yes, you can commit a crime and kill your intended victim, if they fight back with deadly force. Under Stand Your Ground, I could go into a bank, hand the teller a robbery note, and if the bank guard pulled a gun, I can pull my gun and shoot him dead without being held accountable for the murder. ---
**Author:** ![gamerunknown](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/6bbea6/32.png) [@gamerunknown](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/gamerunknown)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/185 "2012-04-04T14:31:17Z")
> [@](#): > > To be classified as a ‘non-racist’, I have to admit that I’d like to see a possibly innocent man convicted or lynched? No, you parsed that incorrectly. He’s saying that the mischaracterisation of the posters in the thread claiming that there’s a reasonable case against Zimmerman is evidence of the poster’s own racist ideology (hence the use of the word lynched). ---
**Author:** ![Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e8c25b/32.png) [@Really\_Not\_All\_That\_Bright](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Really_Not_All_That_Bright)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/186 "2012-04-04T14:32:40Z")
> [@Kearsen](#): > > Wait, what? > > To be classified as a ‘non-racist’, I have to admit that I’d like to see a possibly innocent man convicted or lynched? I think you missed a word or two in the post you quoted. I was telling him that the people getting tarred as racists were receiving that treatment because they kept claiming everyone _else_ had already decided Zimmerman was guilty. So, I asked him to point out anyone who’d decided that. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/187 "2012-04-04T14:33:06Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i wish you’d _literally_ choke on it. > [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > there’s a word for this behavior common on internet forums–but apparently if you call someone that in GD the mods get pissy. I think I already explained all of this to you, but you can’t insult other people in Great Debates (or forum other than the Pit). You can’t call them trolls, and you can’t call them names. Even in the Pit, you can’t tell people you wish they would die. Trolling isn’t allowed either, but the staff gets to make the decisions on who is trolling and who is not. Meanwhile, you have to follow the rules, and I’m giving you a formal warning here. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/188 "2012-04-04T14:33:08Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Under Stand Your Ground, I could go into a bank, hand the teller a robbery note, and if the bank guard pulled a gun, I can pull my gun and shoot him dead without being held accountable for the murder. Just when I thought **Condescending Robot** ’s posts were as stupid as was possible. Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 2:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/189 "2012-04-04T14:56:21Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think the Stand Your Ground proponents are arguing, yes, you can commit a crime and kill your intended victim, if they fight back with deadly force. Under Stand Your Ground, I could go into a bank, hand the teller a robbery note, and if the bank guard pulled a gun, I can pull my gun and shoot him dead without being held accountable for the murder. Wrong. Unde SYG you explicitly cannot do that. Read it again. ---
**Author:** ![Fear\_Itself](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/fear_itself/32/19637_2.png) [@Fear\_Itself](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Fear_Itself)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/190 "2012-04-04T15:08:29Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Wrong. Unde SYG you explicitly cannot do that. Read it again. Then Zimmerman can also be found guilty of murder. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/191 "2012-04-04T15:10:27Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think the Stand Your Ground proponents are arguing, yes, you can commit a crime and kill your intended victim, if they fight back with deadly force. Under Stand Your Ground, I could go into a bank, hand the teller a robbery note, and if the bank guard pulled a gun, I can pull my gun and shoot him dead without being held accountable for the murder. No Stand your ground does no apply when you are committing a crime, we could use someone like Lawbuff for the specifics Is there any basketball on? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/192 "2012-04-04T15:10:38Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > Then Zimmerman can also be found guilty of murder. Who said he couldn’t be? If the jury decides that it is not reasonable that he was afraid for his life, sure. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 3:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/193 "2012-04-04T15:13:42Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > Is there any basketball on? Before lunch on a work day? No, the NBA doesn’t schedule a whole lot of games that compete with morning game shows and soap operas. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/194 "2012-04-05T02:24:40Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Who said he couldn’t be? If the jury decides that it is not reasonable that he was afraid for his life, sure. so, for the 15th time, do you think the cops were beyond reproach in this case…? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 2:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/195 "2012-04-05T02:41:06Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > so, for the 15th time, do you think the cops were beyond reproach in this case…? No one is ever beyond reproach. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/196 "2012-04-05T03:06:50Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > No one is ever beyond reproach. sometimes, professionally, they can be. totally. do you, tho, PERSONALLY think that in THIS CASE they did all they could have and should have to secure truth and justice? do you, in particular, think they took down 100% of the facts, as willingly given by eyewitnesses, without omission or neglect? specifically, do you think everything Mary Cucher had to say was eagerly and honestly heard out by the responding officer and added into the report with the utmost care for diligent and honest reporting on the case in mind? or do you think part of her testimony was omitted or neglected? let’s go back to the reproach question: do you think the responding officers did a decent job at upholding truth and justice in this case…? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 3:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/197 "2012-04-05T03:38:08Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > sometimes, professionally, they can be. totally. Really? Can you give an example? > [@](#): > > do you, tho, PERSONALLY think that in THIS CASE they did all they could have and should have to secure truth and justice? Since I have no idea what exactly they did and did not do, why would you expect a definitive answer? > [@](#): > > specifically, do you think everything Mary Cucher had to say was eagerly and honestly heard out by the responding officer and added into the report with the utmost care for diligent and honest reporting on the case in mind? This Mary Cucher? [The Seattle Times | Local news, sports, business, politics, entertainment, travel, restaurants and opinion for Seattle and the Pacific Northwest.](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html) Another caller, Mora’s roommate, Mary Cutcher, phoned police after the gunshot and said the black man was standing over another man, which would have been impossible, because Trayvon was already dead. =================== How is she a credible witness? (You do understand, don’t you, that phone calls to police are recorded?) ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 3:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/198 "2012-04-05T03:53:47Z")
you are the squirreliest. you just answered every single question with questions. literally every answer you provided ended in question marks. if you don’t intend to answer anyone’s questions, why should anyone answer yours? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 3:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/199 "2012-04-05T03:55:53Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > if you don’t intend to answer anyone’s questions, why should anyone answer yours? I don’t expect you to. I expect you to continue ignoring the facts I give you. Like Mary Cutcher’s complete unreliability as a witness. ---
**Author:** ![GIGObuster](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gigobuster/32/421_2.png) [@GIGObuster](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GIGObuster)\ **Post date:** [April 5, 2012, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/200 "2012-04-05T04:02:48Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > This Mary Cucher? [The Seattle Times | Local news, sports, business, politics, entertainment, travel, restaurants and opinion for Seattle and the Pacific Northwest.](http://seattletimes.nwsource.com/html/nationworld/2017887566_trayvonmartinfacts02.html) > > Another caller, Mora’s roommate, Mary Cutcher, phoned police after the gunshot and said the black man was standing over another man, which would have been impossible, because Trayvon was already dead. > > =================== > > How is she a credible witness? (You do understand, don’t you, that phone calls to police are recorded?) There are reports that the police did made leading questions and changed the testimony of witnesses on the spot, and this is even reported in the news you are citing here, the police in this case are not showing as reliable and I would like to indeed hear what she said. > [@](#): > > Cutcher later blasted the Sanford police, saying detectives did not return her phone calls because she clearly believed that the person crying was the boy, and that was not the story investigators were looking for. Police issued a news release saying she had given an “inconsistent statement.” > > ABC News later reported that a boy who witnessed part of the incident said he saw someone matching Zimmerman’s red-jacket description lying on the grass, suggesting the shooter had told the truth when he said Trayvon had knocked him down. But the boy, 13-year-old Austin McLendon, gave 911 and The Miami Herald a different account. > > “He never said he saw someone in a red shirt or someone on top of another person — someone is switching his story,” said Austin’s mother, Cheryl Brown. "The police came here and asked him leading questions like, ‘The first person had a red shirt?’ because they wanted him to say, ‘Yes, the person had a red shirt.’ " > > Brown said she will hire an attorney to demand a copy of the audio statement her son gave to prove he has never wavered, and never claimed to see Zimmerman on the ground. > > Florida Department of Law Enforcement investigators were at the gated community last week, re-interviewing witnesses. The probe is also expected to lean heavily on audio experts to try to determine whether it was Trayvon or Zimmerman crying in the first 911 call. > > Several days passed before police released a report with an account that said Zimmerman had blood on his nose and the back of his head, fueling suspicion that the department was attempting to bolster Zimmerman’s story and defend the lack of an arrest. Of course we could listen to what she is reporting: [![](https://img.youtube.com/vi/Kxc7RkQNGh0/hqdefault.jpg "Mary Cutcher Trayvon witness.flv") ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxc7RkQNGh0) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=11)