# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 14
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/261 "2012-04-09T11:53:59Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The witnesses who saw or heard Zimmerman attacking Martin are real people who give their names and agree with the objective physical evidence. > > The “witnesses” who saw or heard Martin attacking Zimmerman are third-hand fictions who are alleged to exist in the reports of police officers who have already been caught ordering witnesses to change their story, and cannot explain why, if Martin was literally on top of Zimmerman when he was shot in the chest, there wasn’t a speck of blood on Zimmerman’s body or clothing. > > Which one you believe says a lot about how far you are prepared to strain credulity in order to side with the white guy who shot a black kid. Nobody saw Zimmerman attack Martin. Wotmesses were in there homes and heard people arguing outsidfe and then the cries for help, and then the shot. Although they might have a certain impression they couldn’t really tell who was calling for help. Martin was 17 Zimmerman is 28. The witmess John was interviewed on local TV. He saw two men struggling and, according to him, the guy on bottom was wearing red and yelling for help. He ran inside to call the police and heard the shot. It was a few seconds on a dark night and he may be incorrect but he’s not fabricated. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/262 "2012-04-09T12:11:40Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > yes. it’s called “the 911 tapes.” the initial suspicion and catalyst for pursuing Martin in the first place was because Zimmerman thought he was on drugs. > > bottom line: if zimmerman hadn’t decided martin was “on drugs” and that he needed to engage him, martin would be alive today. I’m not sure why you’re so focussed on the drugs thing. He also said he was looking around and up to something and that they’d had several break ins. Z’man clearly assumed he was guilty of something but I’m not sure the drugs thing was all that relevant. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/263 "2012-04-09T12:23:33Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > can you give such witnesses and their official statements saying Martin was on top of him when the shots were fired…? > > can you do the thing you demand? That witness was interviewed on local TV as “John” and I’ve seen the clip. He saw two men struggling on on top of the other. The one on bottom was wearing red, and , according to him, yelling for help. He went inside to call the police and heard the shot seconds later. Witnesses are only partly reliable es[ecially on a dark night. I don’t believe anyone just hearing the yelling was able to identify who was yelling regardless of what impression they got. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/264 "2012-04-09T12:38:24Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > _can_ \*you \*point out _any time in the history of ever_ where i said Zimmerman was on top of martin? > > i like that we are actually getting somewhere. > > so, you are speaking to police evidence, their reports and all this. > > do you think the police are totally trustworthy in how they’ve handled and represented all aspects of this case? do you think their reporting was above reproach and should be taken as God’s truth, without bias, shortcoming or any other intention other than the full upholding of truth and justice FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED? > > because unless you can say “yes, absolutely,” then all of your insisting on their “evidence” and “reporting” is moot. Hardly moot. Is it possible the police handled it badly and are now in cover up mode? Sure, but that’s the evidence we have to work with amd means a little more than idle speculation. The thing for me is even if Martin was kicking Z’man’s ass that doesn’t make him the original agressor. Which one was defending themselves? There are some very reasonable scenarios that make Zimmerman the aggressor. AS someone noted, you don’t get to provoke a fight, and then shoot the person when you’re losing and then claim self defense. The big questions for me , that we may never answer is what was said, what happened in that angry confrontation. I can believe an overzealous Z’man agressively questioned MArtin, or possibly tried to detain him. If he pushed him, grabbed his arm, put his hadn on his pistol or even drew it, he’s guilty. But we don’t know what happened and may not be able to find out. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/265 "2012-04-09T12:42:53Z")
> [@Fear\_Itself](#): > > I think the Stand Your Ground proponents are arguing, yes, you can commit a crime and kill your intended victim, if they fight back with deadly force. Under Stand Your Ground, I could go into a bank, hand the teller a robbery note, and if the bank guard pulled a gun, I can pull my gun and shoot him dead without being held accountable for the murder. Completely wrong. The SYG law says you don’t have to retreat if you are in a place where you are allowed to be. In this case both were. However, If Martin approached Z’man aggressively it was Z’man who was standing his ground. If Z’man was agreessive with Martin then Treyvon was defending himself when he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/266 "2012-04-09T12:46:42Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > so, for the 15th time, do you think the cops were beyond reproach in this case…? Maybe not. How exactly do you think that relates? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/267 "2012-04-09T12:52:17Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > I’m not sure why you’re so focussed on the drugs thing. He also said he was looking around and up to something and that they’d had several break ins. > Z’man clearly assumed he was guilty of something but I’m not sure the drugs thing was all that relevant. because it’s the only thing he actually accused trayvon of actually doing wrong, and did so multiple times. \* “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something” “This guy looks like he’s on drugs, he’s definitely messed up.”\* zimmerman had nothing but “suspicious activity” to report/accuse the teen of, which was just “walking about/looking around.” if his suspicion/well-intended busybodiedness really was he just wanted to be totally sure nothing bad was going on, he could have left it at that. but apparently he didn’t think it was a strong enough cause… so he played the “he’s on drugs” card and even went as far as to say “he’s \*definitely \*messed up” (implying wrongdoing) and then urged dispatch to hurry over an officer. it’s more than an incidental portion of this ordeal…zimmerman began with unwarranted suspicion of an innocent minor, so he fluffed up the situation by insisting he \*\*must \*\*be on drugs or something. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/268 "2012-04-09T12:55:08Z")
> [@GIGObuster](#): > > There are reports that the police did made leading questions and changed the testimony of witnesses on the spot, and this is even reported in the news you are citing here, the police in this case are not showing as reliable and I would like to indeed hear what she said. > > Of course we could listen to what she is reporting: > > [http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxc7RkQNGh0](http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Kxc7RkQNGh0) This is the forst I’ve heard of the young boy bei9ng swayed. One lady said that she was very upset about the shooting and that someone was crying for help and nobody helped. The detective siad, “If it makes you feel any better, the person crying for help is the one that’s alive” Maybe he shouldn’t have done that but it’s not as nefarious as leading the witness. At the time, minutes after the shooting, he had no reason to doubt Zimmerman’s story and was trying to comfort someone. Yeah, it seems to me the most they should have asked the kid was “could you tell what anyone was wearing, did you see what color clothes they had on” If they were trying to influence him to make it fit a scenario that’s completely unaccpetable. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 12:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/269 "2012-04-09T12:59:44Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > because it’s the only thing he actually accused trayvon of actually doing wrong, and did so multiple times. > \* > “This guy looks like he’s up to no good, or he’s on drugs or something” > > “This guy looks like he’s on drugs, he’s definitely messed up.”\* > > zimmerman had nothing but “suspicious activity” to report/accuse the teen of, which was just “walking about/looking around.” if his suspicion/well-intended busybodiedness really was he just wanted to be totally sure nothing bad was going on, he could have left it at that. but apparently he didn’t think it was a strong enough cause… > > so he played the “he’s on drugs” card and even went as far as to say “he’s \*definitely \*messed up” (implying wrongdoing) and then urged dispatch to hurry over an officer. > > it’s more than an incidental portion of this ordeal…zimmerman began with unwarranted suspicion of an innocent minor, so he fluffed up the situation by insisting he \*\*must \*\*be on drugs or something. I agree he had no reason to simply assume Martin was on drugs but I think the key is that he was suspicious of a young black male because of the break ins they had. He said he was looking at the houses, and up to something. i think the drugs part is incidental rather than key. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/270 "2012-04-09T13:06:34Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Neither do you. > No, my opinions are based on the information that is, actually, known. Like the eyewitness that says Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman and beating him up (and no eyewitness that says otherwise), for example. he official police report says Z’man had blood on his nose and the back of his head and was treated by SFD. The funeral director said Treyvon had no signs of being in a fight, so it does appear that in the scuffle Treyvon was winning. That doesn’t make him the aggressor, which is key IMO, but at the time it seems the police had little reason to doubt Martin’s account. I have read that one homicide detective wanted to charge him and was told no by others. I do wonder if that’s true and on what basis he wanted to charge him. Was there any inconsistentcy in Z’man’s story or was it just procedure. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/271 "2012-04-09T13:10:03Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Maybe not. How exactly do you think that relates? you’re kind of late to the ball game, guy. \*\*terr \*\*(mostly in a different thread on the same topic) plays a lot of “devil’s advocate” by questioning _every single aspect_ of _every shred of evidence_, testimony or speculation damning zimmerman. to say it more plainly, he’s presupposed zimmerman’s innocence and justifications. rather than just full-on take that side of the debate and argue it, \*\*terr \*\*instead tried to make whoever brings anything against zimmerman’s innocence prove \*their \*case, demanding quotes and data and actual witness’ names and everything else. when you provide this data, he tries to dismiss eye-witness testimony based on any minor portion that conflicts with police report. in order for him to have a leg to stand on with this tactic, he’d have to say the police were beyond reproach, with justice and truth in mind. if he can’t say he stands by (and believes in) the civil disposition and investigation of the responding officers, then he really can’t dismiss the testimony of, say, Mary Cutcher, who has strongly conflicting testimony from zimmerman (and the police’s corroboration). \*\*terr \*\*wants to throw away everything cutcher and her room mate says about what they saw because 1. it conflicts with his presupposed “zimmerman is innocent” stance and because 2. it contradicts the police report taken from cutcher…in spite of her repeated pleading to take a whole statement/the police “correcting” her actual statement and changing it in the report. she, in particular has a strong case for “the police didn’t really want to hear what actually happened” and has been the most vocal about it. she is, as well, one of only a handful of fully identified eyewitness and seems to have one of the largest amounts of information as to what happened. but she, in particular, is “inadmissible” to **terr** ’s debate, since the cops say her story is conflicting. the only way he has a point is if he can say he believe the police are beyond reproach and their reporting/corroboration is honest to begin with (hint: it is, apparently, not at all honest, fair or upholding justice since chief lee was voted _no confidence_ and has since stepped down, as well as them handing the case over the FBI). i think you can appreciate the situation. if someone wants to hide behind the cops in this case and use their report as cause to ignore other eyewitness accounts, then they need to at least say they \*believe \*the cops. pinning \*\*terr \*\*down, he just skirted the question. every time. indicated not even HE believes the cops were fully honest in how they reported and handled stuff. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/272 "2012-04-09T13:11:31Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > this witness is 100% credible? his testimony is without flaw or bias, and is a fact? > > undisputed? > > you’re talking about this mystery person–“john?” > > that’s a full-fledged truth? Do you wonder how anyone hearing a muffled argument through a closed window , so muffled they couldn’t make out any words, could somehow be sure that one muffled voice was a 17n year old and one was a 28 year old. The reports of a child’s voice are unreliable because neither was a child. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/273 "2012-04-09T13:32:18Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Do you wonder how anyone hearing a muffled argument through a closed window , so muffled they couldn’t make out any words, could somehow be sure that one muffled voice was a 17n year old and one was a 28 year old. The reports of a child’s voice are unreliable because neither was a child. the described “screams of a child” were, by all accounts, those of Martin _after the first gunshot_, before the second which silenced him. i’m fairly certain that a 17 year old “man” is going to default to a fairly primitive sound when hot bullets enter him. i’m not sure what authority you believe you have to make such claims as you are– a horrific scream of a kid who just got SHOT is probably a sort of specific sound–something easier to distinguish than, say, specific words in an altercation. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Captor](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/f17d59/32.png) [@Evil\_Captor](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Captor)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 1:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/274 "2012-04-09T13:42:31Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Completely wrong. > The SYG law says you don’t have to retreat if you are in a place where you are allowed to be. In this case both were. However, If Martin approached Z’man aggressively it was Z’man who was standing his ground. If Z’man was agreessive with Martin then Treyvon was defending himself when he was shot. Um, Zimmerman followed Martin for a long time before whatever happened, happened. It’s pretty much a dead certain lock that if Martin had been allowed to proceed as he was proceeding, the outcome of the walk would have been that he went home and gave his brother some Skittles. Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty as sin. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/275 "2012-04-09T14:02:44Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > to say it more plainly, he’s presupposed zimmerman’s innocence and justifications. well Terr can speak for himself but I took it as looking at the available information reasonably without making leaps. I’ve seen lots of speculation and bad reasoning in discussions about this case. Nothing wrong with speculating and having an opinion if you’re aware that’s all it is. I do have a hard time with people assuming thier speculation is sound reasoning. > [@](#): > > when you provide this data, he tries to dismiss eye-witness testimony based on any minor portion that conflicts with police report. The fact is eye witnesses are not always relaible because emotion plays a part , especially is stressful situations. This was a dark night and the “eye witnesseses” you speak of heard something going on. That adds another layer of doubt. The relevant question is , is it reasonble to assume people could tell the difference in voices between two strangers , one a 17 year old and one a 28 year old. My conclusion is , it’s not reasonable. They couldn’t really tell the difference. > [@](#): > > in order for him to have a leg to stand on with this tactic, he’d have to say the police were beyond reproach, with justice and truth in mind. This simply isn’t true. We can speculate all day and it means nothing. Is it popssible the police doctored the report to make her look bad? I guess. But her testimony is suspect without the apparent conflcit because it’s simply not reasonable to believe she could determine who’s voice was crying for help. " I think it was a young boy" is more speculation that doesn’t help. > [@](#): > > \*\*terr \*\*wants to throw away everything cutcher and her room mate says about what they saw because IMO, it simply doesn’t change anything. She saw Z’man standiong over Martin, and walking looking confused or in shock. That doesn’t contradict Z’man’s story. She can’t identify the noise she heard or the voice. > [@](#): > > she, in particular has a strong case for “the police didn’t really want to hear what actually happened” and has been the most vocal about it . She clearly doesn’t know what actually happened. Honestly, she has very little to offer in the way of evidence, so there’s not much reason to call her back. Someone gave an anonymous interview and said there was a community meeting attended by the police asking for information, but that doesn’t mean they needed to hear from people they’d already had statements from. She refers to Martin as the little boy, and says she knows it was him. He wasn’t a little boy and she can’t possibly know. That alone discredits her as having relevant factual information rather than just an opinion. She went out to her porch after the shot. Of course there was no fighting then. She simply doesn’t have much to offer other than her own speculation and feelings. > [@](#): > > i think you can appreciate the situation. if someone wants to hide behind the cops in this case and use their report as cause to ignore other eyewitness accounts, then they need to at least say they \*believe \*the cops. > > pinning \*\*terr \*\*down, he just skirted the question. every time. indicated not even HE believes the cops were fully honest in how they reported and handled stuff. It’s more a matter of dealing with the information we have and forming reasonable conclusions based on the details. At least two witnesses saw two men struggling before the shot was fired. She only saw after the shot. None of that contradict’s Zimmerman’s story. Again, the key piece of info IMO is who was the agressor in the confrontation that led to a fight and the shooting. That, we simply don’t know and there are no witnesses who saw or heard , with the possible exception of Treyvon’s girlfriend which we haven’t heard much from. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/276 "2012-04-09T14:04:58Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > the described “screams of a child” were, by all accounts, those of Martin _after the first gunshot_, before the second which silenced him. > > i’m fairly certain that a 17 year old “man” is going to default to a fairly primitive sound when hot bullets enter him. > > i’m not sure what authority you believe you have to make such claims as you are– > > a horrific scream of a kid who just got SHOT is probably a sort of specific sound–something easier to distinguish than, say, specific words in an altercation. Where did you get the two gunshots thing? Honestly, that’s new to me. I hadn’t heard anyone say they heard two shots. I have heard the call that contains 40 seconds of screaming for help. There were two shots that were 40 seconds apart? ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/277 "2012-04-09T14:06:39Z")
> [@Evil\_Captor](#): > > Um, Zimmerman followed Martin for a long time before whatever happened, happened. It’s pretty much a dead certain lock that if Martin had been allowed to proceed as he was proceeding, the outcome of the walk would have been that he went home and gave his brother some Skittles. > > Zimmerman is guilty, guilty, guilty as sin. I’m not sure where you’re getting the “long time” from. We actually don’t know who approached who after Z’man got out of his car. That’s the problem. Z’man may have been the aggressor but we don’t know that. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/278 "2012-04-09T14:23:52Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The funeral director said Treyvon had no signs of being in a fight, so it does appear that in the scuffle Treyvon was winning. No, it means there was no fight. How do you get “he was winning a fight” from “no signs of being in a fight?” Acknowledging that the mortician may not be a wholly unbiased source, if it is true that Martin had no injuries besides the bullet in his chest, it’s game over for Zimmerman. The idea that he was bashing Zimmerman in the face and didn’t end up with so much as a scuffed knuckle, let alone the broken bones in the hand that one would expect, is ludicrous. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/279 "2012-04-09T14:27:48Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Where did you get the two gunshots thing? Honestly, that’s new to me. I hadn’t heard anyone say they heard two shots. > I have heard the call that contains 40 seconds of screaming for help. There were two shots that were 40 seconds apart? > [@](#): > > In one of the eight calls, screaming can be heard in the background as a woman tries to get help. That call is punctuated by two gunshots. > [@](#): > > “I heard the yell for help, one yell for help, and then I heard another… excruciating type of yell. It didn’t almost sound like ‘help.’ It just sounded so painful… two men on the grass, one on top of each other … And then I heard the _ **gunshots** _, which, to me, were more like \*\*\*pops \*\*\*than they were like a bang … Within a couple of seconds after the _ **shots** _, one of the men was walking toward where I was watching, and I could see him a little bit clearer. Could see that it was a Hispanic man. He didn’t appear hurt or anything else.” – Eyewitness talking to CNN’s Anderson Cooper > [@](#): > > There’s someone screaming – I just heard _ **gunshots** _ …Hurry up, they’re right outside my house…I just heard screaming and _ **gun shots** _…No, I don’t hear any more …A male …Oh, my God! The guy on top has a white t-shirt…I just looked out my window and the guy on top has a white t-shirt…I couldn’t see the other thing. I couldn’t see the person he was on…I don’t know – I came to the phone and called you…I couldn’t tell , it was completely dark." > [@](#): > > In the 911 tapes someone can be heard _ **screaming for their life before two gunshots** _ – then silence. (all that) ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 2:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/280 "2012-04-09T14:37:13Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > No, it means there was no fight. How do you get “he was winning a fight” from “no signs of being in a fight?” > > Acknowledging that the mortician may not be a wholly unbiased source, if it is true that Martin had no injuries besides the bullet in his chest, it’s game over for Zimmerman. The idea that he was bashing Zimmerman in the face and didn’t end up with so much as a scuffed knuckle, let alone the broken bones in the hand that one would expect, is ludicrous. Not really. It wasn’t an extended fight. Z;man said the punch to the face knowcked him down, and Martin banged his head agasint the walk. There’s no indication it was the kind of fight that would leave marks on Martin, which might speak to the “fearing for your life” part. I believe I read somewhere that Z’man said Martin was trying to get his gun, which could be self defense, but that might account for Z’man’s panic. IN another FL case involving SYG, a 69 year old man took a pistol across the street to a park to confront a 40 year old Dad. They argued and the Dad tackled him in an attempt to get the gun. The Dad was shot and killed , but after 2 days of public outcry the older man was arrested. The difference was that some witnesses said the older man drew his gun from his belt, which means he was the aggressor and the Dad was defending himself when he was shot. That’s the crucial info we don’t have in this case. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=13) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=15)