# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 16
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/301 "2012-04-09T19:03:17Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i think it’s just going to be left to internet debate and speculation until the real investigation happens. > > in one news article by the Chicago Tribute you get every and all different answers: > > followed in the same article with: > > followed with: > > followed with yet: > > and then punctuated with the best part: > > who really knows… The claims made by the lawyers is not evidence. Where are the people who were there that night saying they heard two shots? Where is anyone who was there that heard a shot, someone crying for help , and then another shot. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/302 "2012-04-09T19:05:27Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > Martin hasn’t claimed anything. He’s dead so he can’t. > > I also wasn’t referring to a “2nd or 3rd hand report” but Zimmerman’s statement contained in the police report that his attorneys were trumpeting in his defense. > > He claims that Martin was on top of him, punching him in the face repeatedly and banging his head in the concrete repeatedly. > > The video makes it clear that this account is a lie because if Martin had been beating on him for a full minute and broken his nose he’d have been in far worse shape than he appeared. Yes, I got the names wrong. Sorry. here’s the initial report > **[Sanford, FL Police Report On Trayvon Martin | PDF](https://www.scribd.com/doc/87854243/Trayvon-Martin-police-report)** > > Read the redacted Sanford, Florida police report from the evening Trayvon Martin was fatally shot. It doesn’t cover the questioning at the station. It does say that Z’man was bloody and treated on site. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/303 "2012-04-09T19:07:13Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > What I’ve done is examine the details as we have them and tried to be rational in examining them rather than emotional. I haven’t concluded anything because I’m aware I don’t know and I’m fairly confident you don’t either. > Although I am new to this conversation I’ve following this case and have done the reading and listened to the audio. > My point is that the two people involved were 17 and 28 and there was no CHILD yelling for help. Their ages are a fact. It’s not reasonable to believe someone who was inside and heard two strangers yelling could definitively claim they know it was Treyvon. > I’m aware two audio forensic specialists have said it’s not Zimmerman yelling. I find that compelling but not 100% foolproof I do find it interesting that you linked to them but not to any report supporting your gunshot but I’, screams, then another gunshot assertion. I’m not saying it doesn’t exist but since I’ve been following this story somewhat closely I’m surprised I haven’t heard anyone say that. As I pointed out, your own witness, who was about 19 feet away and spoke to Zimmerman, when she was on her porch, doesn’t claim two gunshots in the way you just did. > Please don’t assume you know my thought process. Just present your arguments and whatever facts and evidence you have to back them up. > On the audio with all the screaming the person calling does not mention a gunshot until we hear one. If someone is calling 911 they’d be likely to mention that first gunshot wouldn’t they? > So, aside from you asserting it, you haven’t provided anything to support your claim. “my own witness” has been linked numerously at this point. this thread is 7 pages long and i don’t feel the need to re-post all seven pages for you just because you got here late. the links are there–go back and find them. several witnesses have said they heard two gun shots and a child’s screams. and, for that matter–what arbitrary distinction are you making as to what constitutes a “child?” 17 is his age–you’re right, that’s a fact. and the fact is he’s a _minor_. which is what the witnesses are deferring to as “a child.” legally, he was a child. even if you want to round up to manhood. i can’t help what they said–i can’t help that they call the screams of a dying minor a child–but that’s what he is and that’s what they said they heard, even if the screams you’ve imagined in your head sound like an older guy. as to how many shots were fired–it’s ultimately arbitrary. you said “where did that come from? this is the first i’ve ever heard of two shots being fired.” ok, but if you’re following the case as you claim, following it closely, you might have heard about it, i’d think–as i just posted NUMEROUS accounts of multiple gunshots and NUMEROUS rebuttals to those accounts. whether you but it or not doesn’t matter–it’s one thing to say it’s unknowable who many shots were fired, or to say it’s a point of contention. but you said you’d never heard it even be suggested there were more than one shot–and it was in the first article i read about the case. and numerous ones there-after. and in the great many other i posted. their veracity is, again, moot and unknowable–but this started with you being ignorant to the fact it was a point at all, much less one of contention. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/304 "2012-04-09T19:13:58Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > The claims made by the lawyers is not evidence. Where are the people who were there that night saying they heard two shots? Where is anyone who was there that heard a shot, someone crying for help , and then another shot. again, numerous links throughout this thread, go click them. again, we can debate if it was one or two til the cows come home–the point was to introduce you to the concept of which you were claiming to be totally ignorant of. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/305 "2012-04-09T19:16:02Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Your google-fu is lacking. I gave you the phrase to search, in quotes. nice try, pal. you’re not shoveling off \*your \*burden of proof onto _me_. i’ve pointed out the police have not commented on the forensic firearm data. if you want to maintain they have indeed commented–feel free to post proof. otherwise, _bullshit_. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/306 "2012-04-09T19:27:04Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > nice try, pal. > you’re not shoveling off \*your \*burden of proof onto _me_. > > i’ve pointed out the police have not commented on the forensic firearm data. > > if you want to maintain they have indeed commented–feel free to post proof. > > otherwise, _bullshit_. You never tire of being wrong. > **[Police leak details of George Zimmerman's account of Trayvon Martin shooting](https://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-leak-details-of-george-zimmermans-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087/)** > > SANFORD — With a single punch, Trayvon Martin decked neighborhood watch volunteer George Zimmerman, then climbed on top of him and slammed his head into the sidewalk several times before Zimmerman... “Zimmerman then shot Martin **once in the chest from very close range** , authorities said” ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/307 "2012-04-09T19:37:26Z")
Terr, that does not disprove anything. How many bullets were fired into the chest of Martin has nothing to do with how many total shots were fired. What if the first shot ended up buried in the grass. I’m not saying that there were two shots at all, I’m just saying that your ‘proof’, that the report indicates one gunshot wound to the chest in no way precludes that the gun was fired more than once. Again, I’m not saying it was, just that you haven’t disproved anything. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/308 "2012-04-09T19:39:31Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Terr, that does not disprove anything. How many bullets were fired into the chest of Martin has nothing to do with how many total shots were fired. What if the first shot ended up buried in the grass. I’m not saying that there were two shots at all, I’m just saying that your ‘proof’, that the report indicates one gunshot wound to the chest in no way precludes that the gun was fired more than once. Again, I’m not saying it was, just that you haven’t disproved anything. Read **dontbesojumpy** ’s fantasies in this thread. That’s what I have been responding to: \* "the described “screams of a child” were, by all accounts, those of Martin after the first gunshot, before the second which silenced him. i’m fairly certain that a 17 year old “man” is going to default to a fairly primitive sound when hot bullets enter him."\* ---
**Author:** ![Airbeck](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/airbeck/32/6574_2.png) [@Airbeck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Airbeck)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/309 "2012-04-09T19:47:35Z")
Like I said, I’m not agreeing with anyone. I’m not taking a position on the number of gunshots. I thought I made that clear. I’m simply saying that your proof of a single gunshot is not proof of that at all. All it is is a police statement of how many bullets wound up in Martin’s chest. Not how many total were fired. Other evidence may show that there was only one shot fired that night, but your cited ‘proof’ doesn’t disprove anything. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/310 "2012-04-09T19:52:10Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > Like I said, I’m not agreeing with anyone. I’m not taking a position on the number of gunshots. I thought I made that clear. > > I’m simply saying that your proof of a single gunshot is not proof of that at all. All it is is a police statement of how many bullets wound up in Martin’s chest. Not how many total were fired. Other evidence may show that there was only one shot fired that night, but your cited ‘proof’ doesn’t disprove anything. It shows Martin was hit with one bullet. Which was in response to **dontbesojumpy** ’s fantasies of multiple bullets hitting Martin. As I explained already, and you ignored. ---
**Author:** ![Czarcasm](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/czarcasm/32/4050_2.png) [@Czarcasm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Czarcasm)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/311 "2012-04-09T19:56:53Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > It shows Martin was hit with one bullet. Which was in response to **dontbesojumpy** ’s fantasies of multiple bullets hitting Martin. As I explained already, and you ignored. But **dontbesojumpy** _didn’t_ say he had been hit twice. he said there was a first shot that caused the victim to scream, then a second shot that killed him. Did he say that the first shot hit the victim also? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/312 "2012-04-09T19:57:17Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > You never tire of being wrong. > > [Police leak details of George Zimmerman's account of Trayvon Martin shooting](http://www.tampabay.com/news/publicsafety/crime/police-leak-details-of-george-zimmermans-account-of-trayvon-martin-shooting/1222087) > > “Zimmerman then shot Martin **once in the chest from very close range** , authorities said” headline: POLICE LEAK DETAILS… nothing about this leaves any doubts to the veracity of the details. sounds real official _and everything!_ nope. nothing to doubt any of that at all. and how many times martin was shot vs how many times the gun was fired are in no way required to be the same. and, to repeat, how many times the gun was fired is arbitrary. \*\*Cosmodan \*\*said: > [@](#): > > Where did you get the two gunshots thing? Honestly, that’s new to me. I hadn’t heard anyone say they heard two shots. to which i pointed him to a series of various quotes, _ **none of which are ‘my fantasies,’ my hypothesis nor my opinion.** _ they are simply quotes: > [@](#): > > Lawyers Natalie Jackson and Benjamin Crump insisted then that they could hear two shots on one 911 call, a warning shot and a kill shot, and that that proved Zimmerman was a murderer > followed with: > [@](#): > > Quote: > “You hear a shot, a clear shot then you hear a 17-year-old boy begging for his life then you hear a second shot,” plus a handful of others plus many other embedded further back in the thread. i never claimed this was true, i’m just pointing out the “thing he’d never heard of” is totally a thing. ---
**Author:** ![Shodan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9f8e36/32.png) [@Shodan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Shodan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/313 "2012-04-09T19:58:48Z")
> [@Airbeck](#): > > I’m simply saying that your proof of a single gunshot is not proof of that at all. All it is is a police statement of how many bullets wound up in Martin’s chest. Not how many total were fired. > [@](#): > > Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel 9 mm, its magazine was full. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber. [Cite](http://www.atlanticdaily.com/index.php?t=politics). So, one shot gone from Zimmerman’s gun, one shell casing, one gunshot wound on Martin. I don’t think it really matters what people think they heard - there was **one** shot fired that night. Therefore, anyone who believes “I heard one shot, then Martin was begging for his life, then Zimmerman finished him off with another shot” is wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. > [@](#): > > and how many times martin was shot vs how many times the gun was fired are in no way required to be the same. Like hell they’re not - what do you think, Martin was shot from the grassy knoll? Regards, Shodan ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 7:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/314 "2012-04-09T19:59:55Z")
> [@Czarcasm](#): > > But **dontbesojumpy** _didn’t_ say he had been hit twice. he said there was a first shot that caused the victim to scream, then a second shot that killed him. Did he say that the first shot hit the victim also? “i’m fairly certain that a 17 year old “man” is going to default to a fairly primitive sound when hot bullets enter him.” ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/315 "2012-04-09T20:13:45Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > [Cite](http://www.atlanticdaily.com/index.php?t=politics). > > So, one shot gone from Zimmerman’s gun, one shell casing, one gunshot wound on Martin. I don’t think it really matters what people think they heard - there was **one** shot fired that night. Therefore, anyone who believes “I heard one shot, then Martin was begging for his life, then Zimmerman finished him off with another shot” is wrong beyond a reasonable doubt. > Like hell they’re not - what do you think, Martin was shot from the grassy knoll? > > Regards, > Shodan you’re right–there’s no mechanical way that a gun can fire a bullet that doesn’t hit someone. guns don’t ever miss. if someone has one bullet in them, then whatever gun shot them MUST have only been fired once. ever. sound logic. who can argue that. i get it–quote the part that supports you, ignore that devilish caveat that doesn’t. and sweet zombie jesus, the “cite” you posted reads real huge at the top, in bold red letters: **The Incompetence of the Sanford PD** and goes on to lambast them for NOT DOING: A standard police investigation would have (a) secured the area and documented the location of the body as a crime scene, (b) held Mr. Zimmerman for drug and alcohol testing, (c) \*\*\*held Mr. Zimmerman’s weapon for ballistic testing to verify that it was the weapon that killed the deceased, * * * and then goes on to say: > [@](#): > > Police found a single shell casing at the scene, and when they seized George Zimmerman’s handgun, a Kel Tel 9 mm, its magazine was full. The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber. In other words, Zimmerman loaded the gun, racked the slide to put a round in the chamber, removed the magazine, put another round in the magazine, and then replaced the magazine in the gun. not anywhere does it say how many shots were fired… i’m just not sure how a cite defaming the investigating officers compels you as proof of anything they claim…? the entire article is a compendium of their fuck-ups… and THIS is what you rely on as testament of their claim…? not to be a pill, but even if they honestly only recovered a single shell casing, what compelling reason does anyone have, based on this cite you’ve provided, that they did a thorough enough job to be sure there weren’t others? i’ll go on say once again: it’s moot and arbitrary how many shots were fired. the quotes i’ve provided were to point out to cosmodan that it “was a thing” since he’d never heard anything about two shots. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/316 "2012-04-09T20:16:05Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > not anywhere does it say how many shots were fired… “The only bullet missing was the one in the chamber.” Would be a cool trick firing multiple shots with one bullet. ---
**Author:** ![Ibn\_Warraq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/e19b73/32.png) [@Ibn\_Warraq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ibn_Warraq)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/317 "2012-04-09T20:16:25Z")
> [@cosmosdan](#): > > Yes, I got the names wrong. Sorry. > > here’s the initial report > [Trayvon Martin Police Report | PDF](http://www.scribd.com/doc/87854243/Trayvon-Martin-police-report) > > It doesn’t cover the questioning at the station. It does say that Z’man was bloody and treated on site. I’d rather not download that link onto my IPhone. Is this what you linked to?[http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226\_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf) This came up in another thread when Terr challenged my citing a Miami Herald article that mentioned the initial report said nothing about any injuries to Zimmerman. It was pointed out that there are actually two reports in this. The first, filed by officer Ayalla doesn’t mention any injuries, while the second report filed by officer Smith mentioned a bloody nose and scratches on the back of the head. Terr tried to redefine the term “initial” and have us throw out Officer Ayalla’s report and only look at Officer Smith’s report but we pointed out this was ludicrous. If, and it’s a big if, Zimmerman actually had any injuries, they were extremely minor and completely with the claims put forward by Zimmerman and his family that Trayvon Martin was on top of him for about a minute punching him in the face and smashing his head into the concrete. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/318 "2012-04-09T20:21:36Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > “i’m fairly certain that a 17 year old “man” is going to default to a fairly primitive sound when hot bullets enter him.” you’re quoting a conversation about if the screams were trayvon’s or not. i, in no way, attested to how many times he was shot. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/319 "2012-04-09T20:27:07Z")
^that. ---
**Author:** ![cosmosdan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a6a055/32.png) [@cosmosdan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/cosmosdan)\ **Post date:** [April 9, 2012, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/320 "2012-04-09T20:31:36Z")
> [@Ibn\_Warraq](#): > > I’d rather not download that link onto my IPhone. > > Is this what you linked to?[http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226\_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf](http://msnbcmedia.msn.com/i/MSNBC/Sections/NEWS/120226_TrayvonMartinPoliceReport.pdf) > > This came up in another thread when Terr challenged my citing a Miami Herald article that mentioned the initial report said nothing about any injuries to Zimmerman. It was pointed out that there are actually two reports in this. The first, filed by officer Ayalla doesn’t mention any injuries, while the second report filed by officer Smith mentioned a bloody nose and scratches on the back of the head. > > Terr tried to redefine the term “initial” and have us throw out Officer Ayalla’s report and only look at Officer Smith’s report but we pointed out this was ludicrous. > > If, and it’s a big if, Zimmerman actually had any injuries, they were extremely minor and completely with the claims put forward by Zimmerman and his family that Trayvon Martin was on top of him for about a minute punching him in the face and smashing his head into the concrete. You can tell from the reports that officer Smith was the first on the scene and saw the blood. Officer Ayala mentions that in his report, that other officers were already there. Smith was the one who cuffed Z’man and took possession of the weapon. so, Smith’s version is the one that counts. I understand what you’re saying about the fight and the video but it is still inconclusive. There’s a difference between a struggle with a few blows and a sever beating. since Martin was killed some sign of a beating is what we want to see, but we don’t know how sever it was. A person can have a broken nose and not even know it until it’s checked out. An officer does look at the back of his head in the video which seems to indicate a head wound of some sort. Just not as sever as we might expect from a life and death struggle. I asked about Martin going for Z’man’s gun because IMO, that could easily cause someone to panic and shoot. That’s not saying I take Z’man’s word for it all. I think who was the initial aggressor is still in question. I’m just sorting the details that are available. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=15) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=17)