# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Jack\_Batty](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jack_batty/32/3201_2.png) [@Jack\_Batty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jack_Batty)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/21 "2012-03-28T19:17:17Z")
Agreed. Some of our more fervent gun-guys here seemed to be decrying Zimmerman as not quite the best steward of the Second Amendment they’ve ever seen … and I agree with them. ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/22 "2012-03-28T19:27:56Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > Because I was referring to a few boards in particular that are known for racists. You can find them on your own. They are, in fact, right-wing. I’m not familiar with any left-wing racist message boards, but perhaps they exist. No need to look at messageboards; call me crazy, but I suspect the guys selling T-shirts with Zimmerman’s picture and the words “Pussy-Ass Cracker,” offering a bounty for Zimmerman’s “capture,” or tweeting out an address they think is Zimmerman’s are not acting out of pure hearts and fairminded consideration for the good of all humanity. ---
**Author:** ![Jas09](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/d07c76/32.png) [@Jas09](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jas09)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/23 "2012-03-28T19:39:09Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No need to look at messageboards; call me crazy, but I suspect the guys selling T-shirts with Zimmerman’s picture and the words “Pussy-Ass Cracker,” offering a bounty for Zimmerman’s “capture,” or tweeting out an address they think is Zimmerman’s are not acting out of pure hearts and fairminded consideration for the good of all humanity. OK. But I was responding to **Lightnin’** , who was basing his claim of a clean party divide on the posters at right- and left-wing message boards (see post #4). In response to that I pointed out that it wasn’t a very good indicator because a few prominent right-wing boards provide a nice anonymous source for racist ranting. Maybe there are left-wing boards that do the same, but I am not familiar with them. I didn’t make a single remark about right-wingers as a whole being racists or left-wingers as a whole not being racist. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/24 "2012-03-28T19:44:21Z")
> [@Telemark](#): > > You need to make a distinction between people who are defending the checks and balances of the entire legal system from people who are defending Zimmerman. I haven’t seen many of the latter (although I stopped reading most of these threads, I admit). When someone is defending the supposed “checks and balances of the entire legal system” over and over again, even when evidence emerges that the legal system screwed up in this instance, it starts looking like a defense for Zimmerman’s actions. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/25 "2012-03-28T19:55:36Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > When someone is defending the supposed “checks and balances of the entire legal system” over and over again, even when evidence emerges that the legal system screwed up in this instance, it starts looking like a defense for Zimmerman’s actions. So, the Grand Jury has already met? You don’t even seem to know how the legal system is supposed to work, yet you are claiming it screwed up. For what would be about the zillionth time- It’s a CAPITAL case. The DA MUST get a Indictment thru the Grand Jury. The DA has called said GJ. The GJ hasn’t even met yet. “Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?” ---
**Author:** ![furt](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/439d5e/32.png) [@furt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/furt)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/26 "2012-03-28T20:02:42Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > OK. But I was responding to **Lightnin’** , who was basing his claim of a clean party divide on the posters at right- and left-wing message boards (see post #4). In response to that I pointed out that it wasn’t a very good indicator because a few prominent right-wing boards provide a nice anonymous source for racist ranting. Maybe there are left-wing boards that do the same, but I am not familiar with them. Ah; I follow you now. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/27 "2012-03-28T20:08:04Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, the Grand Jury has already met? You don’t even seem to know how the legal system is supposed to work, yet you are claiming it screwed up. For what would be about the zillionth time- It’s a CAPITAL case. The DA MUST get a Indictment thru the Grand Jury. The DA has called said GJ. The GJ hasn’t even met yet. > > “Do you understand the words that are coming out of my mouth?” 1. many states do not have grand jurys, you only have a right to a grand jury in federal cases 2. there was no investigation, without the outrage there would have been no grand jury, as Florida does use them. I am pro-self defense and pro 2nd, my outrage is that the police were going to let this go with no investigation. ---
**Author:** ![you\_with\_the\_face](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/y/ecccb3/32.png) [@you\_with\_the\_face](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/you_with_the_face)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/28 "2012-03-28T20:09:13Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > So, the Grand Jury has already met? You seem to have a hard time appreciating that without the outcry from the public, there’d be no grand jury, let alone a halfway decent investigation of Martin’s death. This whole thing was headed for the scrapheap until Martin’s parents demanded answers. The cops provided some answers and that’s when the scandal started. One one side, we have people who found major shortcomings with the answers provided by the cops. On the other side, we have people who think the answers were perfectly fine and reasonable. ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/29 "2012-03-28T20:16:01Z")
> [@furt](#): > > No need to look at messageboards; call me crazy, but I suspect the guys selling T-shirts with Zimmerman’s picture and the words “Pussy-Ass Cracker,” offering a bounty for Zimmerman’s “capture,” or tweeting out an address they think is Zimmerman’s are not acting out of pure hearts and fairminded consideration for the good of all humanity. Are you suggesting that African-American=liberal? I think you’re confused. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/30 "2012-03-28T20:52:39Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > 1. many states do not have grand jurys, you only have a right to a grand jury in federal cases > > 2. there was no investigation, without the outrage there would have been no grand jury, as Florida does use them. > > I am pro-self defense and pro 2nd, my outrage is that the police were going to let this go with no investigation. In Florida, a GJ is REQUIRED is all capital cases. We don’t know if a GJ would have been called without outrage. It’s very common for these sorts of things to take time. If the suspect is not a flight risk- why hurry? Why not wait until all the evidence is in? if you move prematurely and can’t present the GJ with all the evidence, you run a risk of the GJ not returning a indictment. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/31 "2012-03-28T20:55:19Z")
> [@you\_with\_the\_face](#): > > You seem to have a hard time appreciating that without the outcry from the public, there’d be no grand jury, let alone a halfway decent investigation of Martin’s death. > > . We don’t know if a GJ would have been called without outrage. It’s very common for these sorts of things to take time. (You have never been on one, and from your earlier comments it appears you had no idea one was even required or what they did) If the suspect is not a flight risk- why hurry? Why not wait until all the evidence is in? if you move prematurely and can’t present the GJ with all the evidence, you run a risk of the GJ not returning a indictment. There is NOTHING to show that the investigation wasn’t proceeding. In fact, there’s now a very real risk that the Prosecution may have been pressured into moving too early. Why not take your time and gather all the evidence? ---
**Author:** ![Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Hentor\_the\_Barbarian](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Hentor_the_Barbarian)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 8:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/32 "2012-03-28T20:58:16Z")
> [@Jas09](#): > > You’ve picked the 2% of liberals that post on left-leaning forums and the 2% of conservatives that post on right-leaning forums. It’s not surprising that they fall into the groups that they do. > > The vast middle believes something terrible and unavoidable happened that should be more thoroughly investigated. > > Also, depending on which “right-wing forum” you are talking about, many are rife with barely-hidden racists. It shouldn’t be very surprising that they think Zimmerman did the right thing. > > For the more mainstream, I think you fall into the pattern of supporting a law that you created. Since at least part of the story is Stand Your Ground laws, something generally supported by the right, it’s somewhat instinctive to stand up for someone that is using it as his defense. I couldn’t disagree more with you. It was the fact that this shooting was so very avoidable that outraged me the most. Zimmerman was clearly encouraged to avoid it, in fact. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/33 "2012-03-28T21:07:29Z")
[quote=“DrDeth, post:30, topic:617036”] In Florida, a GJ is REQUIRED is all capital cases. The Police didn’t collect standard evidence and the State Attorney’s Office prosecutor never visited the scene. Had it not been for outrage it would have never made it to the GJ. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/34 "2012-03-28T21:15:31Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > We don’t know if a GJ would have been called without outrage. I sort of appreciate this level of trust in the justice system, but I think it strains credulity- especially because the police are now saying they felt charges were warranted and prosecutors were not interested or didn’t think they could make charges stick. That doesn’t indicate a grand jury was going to be called. The shooting was a month ago, and since this case was about a single incident, I find it hard to believe they needed this kind of time before calling a grand jury. There’s no hint that anything was happening before the protests became big news. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/35 "2012-03-28T21:30:30Z")
[quote=“rat\_avatar, post:33, topic:617036”] > [@DrDeth](#): > > In Florida, a GJ is REQUIRED is all capital cases. > The Police didn’t collect standard evidence and the State Attorney’s Office prosecutor never visited the scene. > > Had it not been for outrage it would have never made it to the GJ. 1. You don’t; know that. 2. Who cares? The DA does not collect evidence. The Police collect evidence. Actually a month between the incident and the GJ hearing is way shorter than all the cases we heard. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/36 "2012-03-28T21:32:29Z")
> [@Marley23](#): > > I sort of appreciate this level of trust in the justice system, but I think it strains credulity- especially because the police are now saying they felt charges were warranted and prosecutors were not interested or didn’t think they could make charges stick. That doesn’t indicate a grand jury was going to be called. The shooting was a month ago, and since this case was about a single incident, I find it hard to believe they needed this kind of time before calling a grand jury. . Actually a month between the incident and the GJ hearing is way shorter than all the cases we heard. IMHO, it’s too short of a time. The DA will be going in there without enough time to for the police to gather all the evidence. This ‘stampede to justice” will likely means less chance of Zimmerman being ever brought to trial. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 9:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/37 "2012-03-28T21:34:10Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually a month between the incident and the GJ hearing is way shorter than all the cases we heard. On the other hand it’s much shorter than “never.” ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/38 "2012-03-28T22:31:20Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > Actually a month between the incident and the GJ hearing is way shorter than all the cases we heard. IMHO, it’s too short of a time. The DA will be going in there without enough time to for the police to gather all the evidence. This ‘stampede to justice” will likely means less chance of Zimmerman being ever brought to trial. No, inadequate evidence collection will likely mean less chance of Zimmerman being ever brought to trial. E.g. > [@](#): > > (3) It is unlawful and punishable as provided in subsection (4) for any person who is under the influence of alcoholic beverages, any chemical substance set forth in s. 877.111, or any substance controlled under chapter 893, when affected to the extent that his or her normal faculties are impaired, to use a firearm in this state. We will never know that one because of how poorly the police collected evidence. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/39 "2012-03-28T22:35:29Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > No, inadequate evidence collection will likely mean less chance of Zimmerman being ever brought to trial. > > E.g. > > We will never know that one because of how poorly the police collected evidence. How do you know what evidence the police collected? Have you read the CSI report? The ballistics report? There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was under the effects of alcohol, and it would have taken a Search warrant to get a blood sample. The police had Zimmerman at the stations for many hours, no one has yet indcated there was any reason to suppose he had been drinking. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 11:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/40 "2012-03-28T23:07:11Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How do you know what evidence the police collected? Have you read the CSI report? The ballistics report? > > There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was under the effects of alcohol, and it would have taken a Search warrant to get a blood sample. The police had Zimmerman at the stations for many hours, no one has yet indcated there was any reason to suppose he had been drinking. Nope, no warrant required when using a firearm in the state. > [@](#): > > 790.153 Tests for impairment or intoxication; right to refuse.– > > (1)(a) Any person who uses a firearm within this state shall submit to an approved chemical or physical breath test to determine the alcoholic content of the blood and to a urine test to detect the presence of controlled substances, if there is probable cause to believe that the person was using a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances or that the person is lawfully arrested for any offense allegedly committed while he or she was using a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances. The breath test shall be incidental to a lawful arrest and administered at the request of a law enforcement officer who has probable cause to believe such person was using the firearm within this state while under the influence of alcoholic beverages. The urine test shall be incidental to a lawful arrest and administered at a detention facility, mobile or otherwise, which is equipped to administer such tests at the request of a law enforcement officer who has probable cause to believe such person was using a firearm within this state while under the influence of controlled substances. The urine test shall be administered at a detention facility or any other facility, mobile or otherwise, which is equipped to administer such tests in a reasonable manner that will ensure the accuracy of the specimen and maintain the privacy of the individual involved. The administration of either test shall not preclude the administration of the other test. The refusal to submit to a chemical or physical breath or urine test upon the request of a law enforcement officer as provided in this section shall be admissible into evidence in any criminal proceeding. This section shall not hinder the taking of a mandatory blood test as outlined in s. 790.155. > [@](#): > > 790.155 Blood test for impairment or intoxication in cases of death or serious bodily injury; right to use reasonable force.– > > (1)(a) Notwithstanding any recognized ability to refuse to submit to the tests provided in s. 790.153, if a law enforcement officer has probable cause to believe that a firearm used by a person under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances has caused the death or serious bodily injury of a human being, such person shall submit, upon the request of a law enforcement officer, to a test of his or her blood for the purpose of determining the alcoholic content thereof or the presence of controlled substances therein. The law enforcement officer may use reasonable force if necessary to require such person to submit to the administration of the blood test. The blood test shall be performed in a reasonable manner. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=3)