# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 11:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/41 "2012-03-28T23:18:42Z")
“if there is probable cause to believe that the person was using a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances or that the person is lawfully arrested for any offense allegedly committed while he or she was using a firearm while under the influence of alcoholic beverages or controlled substances.” No-one seemed to think Zimmerman was under the influence. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 28, 2012, 11:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/42 "2012-03-28T23:35:15Z")
> [@DrDeth](#): > > How do you know what evidence the police collected? Have you read the CSI report? The ballistics report? > > There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was under the effects of alcohol, and it would have taken a Search warrant to get a blood sample. The police had Zimmerman at the stations for many hours, no one has yet indcated there was any reason to suppose he had been drinking. And what evidence do you have that “no one thought he was drunk” we are all going from rumor here. As I said, he had a history of drunken domestic violence and violence against police, and a history of court appointed anger management. Had they taken photos of his wounds it would probably have helped his case too. That is why it smells, bad evidence collection of a person with a violent past who was a judges son. ---
**Author:** ![monstro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/ba9def/32.png) [@monstro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monstro)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/43 "2012-03-29T00:05:01Z")
I don’t think falls perfectly on the pro-gun, anti-gun divide. Or the race or party divides, though there definitely is a relationship. Fundamentally, I think if you trust in institutions, particularly law enforcement and the judicial system, then you will not be outraged by this case. If you hold a more cynical view, then you will be distrustful about this case from the very beginning. Everything may be going by the book in this case, but it certainly seems the system moves a bit more quickly when it comes to other people. This is a cynical view, yes. If Martin had shot Zimmerman, would he be at home right now, eating Skittles and sexting his girlfriend? Would the cogs of the justice system have thrown up their hands in futility about the impossibility of convicting him? Even with SYG in play, I don’t think so. SYG would have been brought up by Martin’s lawyer later, as a defense in court, but I don’t think Martin would have been granted immunity from immediate arrest. Even if that’s what the law grants. The Optimist, who either has never seen shit go down or has found a way justify it using the Fair World Hypothesis, never inverts the picture in matters like this one. So of course they are going to take what they are told by the authorities at face value. The Cynic, however, doesn’t. What the Optimist calls “jumping to hasty conclusions”, the Cynic sees as predicting the outcome based on past events and “common sense”. Both ways of thinking are prone to errors, don’t get me wrong. It’s plain to me why conservatives are more likely not to be as outraged. They generally have more trust in institutions. They are more likely to embrace the Fair World Hypothesis too. See, Martin was just asking for trouble because he was wearing a hoodie and walking too slowly. If he hadn’t been doing those things, he would have never gotten his drug-addled self killed. And if he had just answered Mr. Zimmerman’s question instead of being pissed-off about being followed, then he would still be alive. Fair World believers always believe the victim shares in the responsibility for whatever happens to them. Don’t have health insurance? You should have worked harder in school so that you could have gotten a better job. And don’t complain about your low pay. No one is underpaid in this wonderful free market. The market can always be trusted to make fair decisions. Just like the justice system. ---
**Author:** ![UltraVires](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/u/ecccb3/32.png) [@UltraVires](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/UltraVires)\ **Post date:** [March 29, 2012, 12:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/44 "2012-03-29T00:08:51Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > We will never know that one because of how poorly the police collected evidence. Keep on reading two more numbers down: > [@](#): > > (5) This section does not apply to persons exercising lawful self-defense or defense of one’s property. So, it is irrelevant if Zimmerman was drunk off of his ass. It still hinges on the self-defense claim. ETA: Further, > [@](#): > > (1) As used in ss. 790.151-790.157, to “use a firearm” means to discharge a firearm or to have a firearm readily accessible for immediate discharge. > > (2) For the purposes of this section, “readily accessible for immediate discharge” means loaded and in a person’s hand. So you only count the time the gun touched Zimmerman’s hand, not the walk from his car. ---
**Author:** ![BobLibDem](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/boblibdem/32/3149_2.png) [@BobLibDem](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BobLibDem)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 1:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/45 "2012-03-30T13:03:33Z")
It’s all about the guns. Gun nuts are worried shitless that if this turns out to be a case where a private citizen carries a gun and kills someone for no reason, then it will threaten their “right” to carry a gun. Rather then let this remain as an example of needless gun violence, they want to invent a scenario where the shooting was justified, hence the attacks on Martin’s character and the attempts to blame him for his own death. Remember all the debates on concealed weapons? The right wing orthodoxy was “Don’t worry! People who carry guns would NEVER shoot them for no reason.” So much for that theory- unless they can get Martin to be the aggressor and Zimmerman to be the innocent victim. ---
**Author:** ![DirtyBird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/7c8e57/32.png) [@DirtyBird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DirtyBird)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/46 "2012-03-30T19:00:06Z")
> [@BobLibDem](#): > > It’s all about the guns. Gun nuts are worried shitless that if this turns out to be a case where a private citizen carries a gun and kills someone for no reason, then it will threaten their “right” to carry a gun. Rather then let this remain as an example of needless gun violence, they want to invent a scenario where the shooting was justified, hence the attacks on Martin’s character and the attempts to blame him for his own death. Remember all the debates on concealed weapons? The right wing orthodoxy was “Don’t worry! People who carry guns would NEVER shoot them for no reason.” So much for that theory- unless they can get Martin to be the aggressor and Zimmerman to be the innocent victim. FWIW, I’m a pro-gun advocate and I’m in no way concerned about the implications this incident may have on gun laws. But please, more stereotypes. ---
**Author:** ![Capt\_Kirk](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/779978/32.png) [@Capt\_Kirk](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Capt_Kirk)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 8:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/47 "2012-03-30T20:29:33Z")
on a bit of a different line, has anyone else noted the pictures used to represent Zimmerman and Martin in the press? Martin seems to be a cute 12 year old and Zimmerman a drunk/drugged loon . I have seen a few others out there and Zimmerman is a normal looking guy and Martin looks a lot more like a grown man. I think we are being manipulated again. I have to say for clarity I am a wait and see kinda guy and a gun owner who has never shot anyone and hopes I never do, I presume(probably wrongly) that most CCers do too any thoughts ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/48 "2012-03-30T22:08:59Z")
> [@Shodan](#): > > Be sure not to confuse “let’s not condemn anyone without access to all the facts” with “he’s clearly innocent”. > > Also don’t confuse this - > with a statement holding any meaning whatsoever. > > Regards, > Shodan You are correct. ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/49 "2012-03-30T22:13:50Z")
> [@Capt\_Kirk](#): > > on a bit of a different line, has anyone else noted the pictures used to represent Zimmerman and Martin in the press? Martin seems to be a cute 12 year old and Zimmerman a drunk/drugged loon . I have seen a few others out there and Zimmerman is a normal looking guy and Martin looks a lot more like a grown man. I think we are being manipulated again. I have to say for clarity I am a wait and see kinda guy and a gun owner who has never shot anyone and hopes I never do, I presume(probably wrongly) that most CCers do too any thoughts Martin could be a middle-aged tattooed white biker, does that justify chasing someone down int the dark and shooting them because you have a “hunch” they did something bad? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/50 "2012-03-30T22:22:14Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Martin could be a middle-aged tattooed white biker, does that justify chasing someone down int the dark and shooting them because you have a “hunch” they did something bad? How about they are represented as they actually are? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/51 "2012-03-30T22:24:44Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > How about they are represented as they actually are? Pray tell, what “is he” and how does it relate? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/52 "2012-03-30T22:30:25Z")
You won’t agree that the pictures being used are to heighten the emotionalism of the case? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/53 "2012-03-30T22:34:16Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > You won’t agree that the pictures being used are to heighten the emotionalism of the case? Non sequitur, and no, I expect mothers to think highly of their kids, as it is the “best possible environment for kids” So please answer what “is he” that makes his life less valuable. ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/54 "2012-03-30T22:35:08Z")
Who he? He who? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/55 "2012-03-30T22:36:03Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > Non sequitur, and no, I expect mothers to think highly of their kids, as it is the “best possible environment for kids” > > So please answer what “is he” that makes his life less valuable. Well, sorry, i don’t know what “is he” is referring to. The posters point is that we are being manipulated by the photos which are used. I think he has a valid point. You don’t? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/56 "2012-03-30T22:36:29Z")
DrDeth, Travon Martin > [@hoopified](#): > > How about they are represented as they actually are? ---
**Author:** ![hoopified](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/cab0a1/32.png) [@hoopified](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/hoopified)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/57 "2012-03-30T22:38:32Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > DrDeth, Travon Martin STill dont’ get “is he”. Can you respond to what I actually write? ---
**Author:** ![DrDeth](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/b487fb/32.png) [@DrDeth](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DrDeth)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/58 "2012-03-30T22:41:53Z")
> [@rat\_avatar](#): > > DrDeth, Travon Martin WTF? 😕 How about complete sentences? ---
**Author:** ![rat\_avatar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rat_avatar/32/255_2.png) [@rat\_avatar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rat_avatar)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/59 "2012-03-30T22:43:43Z")
> [@hoopified](#): > > STill dont’ get “is he”. Can you respond to what I actually write? [QUOTE=hoopified] [QUOTE=rat avatar] Martin could be a middle-aged tattooed white biker, does that justify chasing someone down int the dark and shooting them because you have a “hunch” they did something bad? [/QUOTE] How about they are represented as they actually are? [/QUOTE] I am responding directly to what you write. Who is Travon, and why is his life is less valuable if he isn’t a cute 12 year old. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [March 30, 2012, 10:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/60 "2012-03-30T22:49:57Z")
It’s true that Martin no longer looked like that cute kid at the time he was shot. Shame on his family for using a picture of him that they liked instead of holding themselves to the highest standards of journalistic accuracy. Once you realize he was a few years older and somewhat taller, might’ve worn a grill in one picture, and had a tattoo on his arm that nobody could’ve seen through his sweatshirt anyway, it makes sense that George Zimmerman found him suspicious for no concrete reason, followed him, and wound up shooting him dead and then possibly made up a story to justify his actions. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=4)