# The Zimmerman/Martin case. Why so cleanly divided between the parties? **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [March 28, 2012, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036 "2012-03-28T13:11:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 9
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 4:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/161 "2012-04-04T04:54:20Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > so YOU need names of witnesses or you dismiss their claims. > > but WE don’t. Link to the post where I demanded the name of the witness or I dismissed their claim. Come on. Back _something_ you say up. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/162 "2012-04-04T05:09:58Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link to the post where I demanded the name of the witness or I dismissed their claim. Come on. Back _something_ you say up. [QUOTE=dontbesojumpy] _Witnesses who heard the cry for help say it stopped with the sound of the shot. They believe if it had been Zimmerman crying out for help, he would have continued to yell for help. But, if it was Trayvon, the cry for help would have stopped once he was shot._ \* According to the Miami Herald, witnesses said they heard Trayvon screaming for help, a booming gunshot, and then silence. Three witnesses say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Sanford teenager’s killing. All three witnesses said they heard the last screams for help from the boy, which proves that Trayvon wasn’t killed in self-defense.\* how on the earth do you determine that THREE WITNESSES, the FOURTH OF WITH BEING MARY CUTCHER, are all one person? [/QUOTE] terr’s reply: > [@](#): > > Name them. i wish you’d _literally_ choke on it. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/163 "2012-04-04T05:36:28Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Link to the post where I demanded the name of the witness or I dismissed their claim. Come on. Back _something_ you say up. [QUOTE=Terr] [QUOTE=dontbesojumpy] Originally Posted by dontbesojumpy View Post again (i’ve quoted this seeeeveral times now: According to the Miami Herald, witnesses said they heard Trayvon screaming for help, a booming gunshot, and then silence. Three witnesses say they saw or heard the moments before and after the Sanford teenager’s killing. All three witnesses said they heard the last screams for help from the boy, which proves that Trayvon wasn’t killed in self-defense. [/QUOTE] The only witness that is quoted in the article is the one that apparently signs untrue statements for the police. And even she has no idea who it was crying, but infers that it was Martin because the crying stopped after the shot. Did you read your article? So - do you have any other witnesses? Maybe ones that don’t sign untrue statements? [/QUOTE] ^dismissal of witness’ claims. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/164 "2012-04-04T05:46:58Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > i wish you’d _literally_ choke on it. again, where did I say I would dismiss them if not named? and I do dismiss one fully named witness because her sworn statement to police contradicts the idea she is pushing now in the media. she either lied on her initial statement to the police, that she signed and verified as true, or she is lying now in her interviews. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/165 "2012-04-04T05:50:18Z")
the quote from the newspaper says “three witnesses.” i didn’t say that. the miami herald did. why was your reply “name them?” if “the public doesn’t need to know their names,” why did you? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/166 "2012-04-04T05:53:50Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > the quote from the newspaper says “three witnesses.” i didn’t say that. the miami herald did. > > why was your reply “name them?” > > if “the public doesn’t need to know their names,” why did you? Hell, name their pseudonyms. I said cuz I only saw two mentioned, so it was to keep them straight. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 5:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/167 "2012-04-04T05:59:53Z")
hell, name \*\*\*YOUR \*\*\*“witness’” pseudonyms. i will as well need to keep them straight. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/168 "2012-04-04T06:03:48Z")
“john?” you going to use that one, i bet… i’ll beat you to the punch: the miami herald three witness’ false names were John, Jane and Joe. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:03am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/169 "2012-04-04T06:03:51Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > hell, name \*\*\*YOUR \*\*\*“witness’” pseudonyms. i will as well need to keep them straight. The witness “John” was the one that reported to the police tha he saw Martin was sitting on top of Zimmerman beating him up. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/170 "2012-04-04T06:05:35Z")
called it. ---
**Author:** ![Condescending\_Robot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/a183cd/32.png) [@Condescending\_Robot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Condescending_Robot)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:08am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/171 "2012-04-04T06:08:12Z")
The witnesses who saw or heard Zimmerman attacking Martin are real people who give their names and agree with the objective physical evidence. The “witnesses” who saw or heard Martin attacking Zimmerman are third-hand fictions who are alleged to exist in the reports of police officers who have already been caught ordering witnesses to change their story, and cannot explain why, if Martin was literally on top of Zimmerman when he was shot in the chest, there wasn’t a speck of blood on Zimmerman’s body or clothing. Which one you believe says a lot about how far you are prepared to strain credulity in order to side with the white guy who shot a black kid. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/172 "2012-04-04T06:13:20Z")
Robot, Terr does not himself believe these things. Terr, in fact, refuses to express what he believes. he is being contrary and demanding people prove his contrary ideas wrong, all while being careful not to express his own opinion (so he doesn’t have to defend it). there’s a word for this behavior common on internet forums–but apparently if you call someone that in GD the mods get pissy. i guess doing it is cool. acknowledging someone doing it not so cool. regardless, Terr as of yet refuses to actually express his own ideas, thoughts or opinions. if you ask him directly, he’ll go to great lengths to dodge answering. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:13am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/173 "2012-04-04T06:13:26Z")
> [@Condescending\_Robot](#): > > The witnesses who saw or heard Zimmerman attacking Martin are real people who give their names and agree with the objective physical evidence. Can you give me some such witnesses so I can look up their statements? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/174 "2012-04-04T06:18:32Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > Can you give me some such witnesses so I can look up their statements? can you give such witnesses and their official statements saying Martin was on top of him when the shots were fired…? can you do the thing you demand? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/175 "2012-04-04T06:24:36Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > can you give such witnesses and their official statements saying Martin was on top of him when the shots were fired…? I never claimed there was a witness who saw martin on top when the shots were fired. But here is a witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him up: > **[FOX 35 Orlando | Local News, Weather, and Live Streams | WOFL](https://www.fox35orlando.com/)** > > Central Florida area news, weather, radar, sports, traffic, live newscasts, and more. From WOFL-TV FOX 35 News in Orlando, your weather authority. The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. “And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.” =============================== Pretty clear - Zimmerman, in red, on bottom, yelling “Help! Help!”. Now can you point me to a witness who can say that he or she saw Zimmerman sitting on top of Martin during the scuffle? ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/176 "2012-04-04T06:26:55Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > I never claimed there was a witness who saw martin on top when the shots were fired. But here is a witness that saw Martin on top of Zimmerman beating him up: > > [FOX 35 Orlando | Local News, Weather, and Live Streams | WOFL](http://www.myfoxorlando.com/dpp/news/seminole_news/022712-man-shot-and-killed-in-neighborhood-altercation) > > The guy on the bottom, who had a red sweater on, was yelling to me, ‘Help! Help!’ and I told him to stop, and I was calling 911," said the witness, who asked to be identified only by his first name, John. > > John said he locked his patio door, ran upstairs and heard at least one gun shot. > > “And then, when I got upstairs and looked down, the guy who was on the top beating up the other guy, was the one laying in the grass, and I believe he was dead at that point.” > > =============================== > > Now can you point me to a witness who can say that he or she saw Zimmerman sitting on top of Martin during the scuffle? is this what you believe happened? is this when you believe Zimmerman shot Martin…? ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/177 "2012-04-04T06:34:12Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > is this what you believe happened? is this when you believe Zimmerman shot Martin…? First - _can_ you point me to a witness that says Zimmerman was on top of Martin? Second - there is another witness that says that the shots happened while one man was sitting on the other one. The witness couldn’t tell which was sitting on which, and did not see, after the shots, how Zimmerman got up. I believe it is pretty clear that Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was sitting on top of him. If it was vice versa, either Zimmerman would be sitting on Martin’s back and it was a shot in the back (contradicted by police evidence) or Martin’s body would be left on its back as Zimmerman got up - and Martin’s body wasn’t on its back. And, of course, forensics would easily find the bullet in the ground under Martin’s body if that’s how it happened. We don’t know the forensics report, but if it was that, it would be a major contradiction to Zimmerman’s story and he’d be under indictment already. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Colossus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.colossus/32/9423_2.png) [@Dr.Colossus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Colossus)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 6:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/178 "2012-04-04T06:47:47Z")
> [@Terr](#): > > First - _can_ you point me to a witness that says Zimmerman was on top of Martin? > > Second - there is another witness that says that the shots happened while one man was sitting on the other one. The witness couldn’t tell which was sitting on which, and did not see, after the shots, how Zimmerman got up. > > I believe it is pretty clear that Zimmerman shot Martin while Martin was sitting on top of him. If it was vice versa, either Zimmerman would be sitting on Martin’s back and it was a shot in the back (contradicted by police evidence) or Martin’s body would be left on its back as Zimmerman got up - and Martin’s body wasn’t on its back. And, of course, forensics would easily find the bullet in the ground under Martin’s body if that’s how it happened. We don’t know the forensics report, but if it was that, it would be a major contradiction to Zimmerman’s story and he’d be under indictment already. _can_ \*you \*point out _any time in the history of ever_ where i said Zimmerman was on top of martin? i like that we are actually getting somewhere. so, you are speaking to police evidence, their reports and all this. do you think the police are totally trustworthy in how they’ve handled and represented all aspects of this case? do you think their reporting was above reproach and should be taken as God’s truth, without bias, shortcoming or any other intention other than the full upholding of truth and justice FOR EVERYONE INVOLVED? because unless you can say “yes, absolutely,” then all of your insisting on their “evidence” and “reporting” is moot. ---
**Author:** ![Measure\_for\_Measure](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/measure_for_measure/32/557_2.png) [@Measure\_for\_Measure](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Measure_for_Measure)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/179 "2012-04-04T07:35:46Z")
DrDeth: Help me out. > [@DrDeth](#): > > Yes, but in this case, the Florida SYG law seems to get in the way of a arrest without a Indictment. I thought that arrests were easy, but often the DA would refuse to press charges. These 2 citations seem to conflict with your position: > **[There Are Plenty of Reasons To Believe Trayvon Martin’s Killer Is Lying](https://slate.com/news-and-politics/2012/03/floridas-stand-your-ground-law-doesnt-prohibit-that-they-arrest-george-zimmerman-for-killing-trayvon-martin.html)** > > Read Slate’s complete coverage of the Trayvon Martin case. [http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083\_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/](http://www.cbsnews.com/8301-504083_162-57401619-504083/author-of-stand-your-ground-law-george-zimmerman-should-probably-be-arrested-for-killing-trayvon-martin/) Why hasn’t this guy been placed under arrest? Isn’t it reasonable to assume there’s a flight risk? Shouldn’t he be posting bail? > [@DrDeth](#): > > There is no evidence at all that Zimmerman was under the effects of alcohol, and it would have taken a Search warrant to get a blood sample. The police had Zimmerman at the stations for many hours, no one has yet indicated there was any reason to suppose he had been drinking. I don’t understand why an alcohol check under the circumstances wouldn’t have been routine, given Zimmerman’s history of anger management problems and the fact that he killed a man. Admittedly, the law cited on page 1 does reference probable cause of use of firearm while under the influence. So I’m somewhat less clear on this point. It seems to me they could have gotten a breath sample at least. ---
**Author:** ![Terr](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/839c29/32.png) [@Terr](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terr)\ **Post date:** [April 4, 2012, 1:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036/180 "2012-04-04T13:55:45Z")
> [@Dr.Colossus](#): > > _can_ \*you \*point out _any time in the history of ever_ where i said Zimmerman was on top of martin? You - no. **Condescending Robot** claimed there were “witnesses who saw or heard Zimmerman attacking Martin” and that they are “real people who give their names and agree with the objective physical evidence.”. So I asked him for cites. Then you piped in. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=8) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zimmerman-martin-case-why-so-cleanly-divided-between-the-parties/617036.md?page=10)