# The Ziz cult **URL:** \ **Category:** Miscellaneous and Personal Stuff I Must Share\ **Created:** [February 9, 2025, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103 "2025-02-09T22:42:14Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [July 6, 2025, 6:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/121 "2025-07-06T18:44:50Z")
A good summary article–if anyone has a gift link: > **[She Wanted to Save the World From A.I. Then the Killings Started.](https://www.nytimes.com/2025/07/06/business/ziz-lasota-zizians-rationalists.html)** > > At first, Ziz LaSota seemed much like any other philosophically inclined young tech aspirant. Now, she and her followers are in jail, six people are dead, and Rationalists are examining whether their ideas played a role. ---
**Author:** ![PastTense](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pasttense/32/14550_2.png) [@PastTense](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PastTense)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2025, 9:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/122 "2025-08-14T21:44:12Z")
> **[Prosecutors seek death penalty against Zizians member charged with murdering...](https://apnews.com/article/zizian-border-patrol-shooting-0ee569f9835e5e6a67707dfb281f4c9a)** > > The Justice Department says it will seek the death penalty against a member of the cultlike Zizians group accused of killing a U.S. Border Patrol agent in Vermont. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2025, 9:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/123 "2025-08-14T21:55:59Z")
Even having read the works of Harlan Ellison and Neal Stephenson, my mind cannot process how human beings could get themselves wound up this way. I can’t account for it with anything I know of, except that it appears they’ve invented a whole new way to go crazy. A systematic program to destroy one’s own mind. I can’t find the like of it in fiction or fact. I’m grasping for the most extreme examples to compare it to. Like the ultra-fascistic Julius Evola cranked up to eleven starring in a scenario written by Philip K. Dick when he was tripping on several psychedelics at once simultaneously with a really horrible gastrointestinal disorder. The end of _Liztomania_ where Richard Wagner rises from the tomb as a demonic hybrid of Hitler and Frankenstein’s monster and destroys the world with an electric guitar machine gun. A distillation of the darkest depths of the Teutonic id. Something approaching that, only cyber this time. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 14, 2025, 11:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/124 "2025-08-14T23:50:43Z")
Bad luck for her: > She’s accused of fatally shooting agent David Maland on Jan. 20, the same day President Donald Trump was inaugurated and signed a sweeping executive order lifting the moratorium on federal executions. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/125 "2025-08-15T00:14:56Z")
Every sort of specific kind of crazy has a specific kind of memetic ideology that is exactly impedance matched to it. The ideology, by itself, may be benign or even positive; the crazy may only be mildly negative without the ideology. But the two together and you get psychopathic behavior. One of the downsides of the internet is that it seems to have sped up this matching process. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/126 "2025-08-15T00:20:56Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > impedance matched “Impedance matching is the process of ensuring that the output impedance of a signal source is equal to the input impedance of the load it is connected to. This is done to maximize power transfer and minimize signal reflection. Achieving impedance matching is crucial in various applications, from RF systems to audio circuits, to ensure optimal performance and signal integrity.” ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:23am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/127 "2025-08-15T00:23:55Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > can’t account for it with anything I know of, except that it appears they’ve invented a whole new way to go crazy. A systematic program to destroy one’s own mind. I can’t find the like of it in fiction or fact. Honestly, the whole thing doesn’t seem that far off from Pascal’s Wager to me. Some overly-simplistic math with some very bad assumptions going in can lead to bonkers outcomes. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/128 "2025-08-15T00:27:37Z")
That was only part of the crazy. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/129 "2025-08-15T00:30:00Z")
It’s a metaphor. Two systems which are fully unmatched will basically act as if they’re isolated (this is most people, most of the time, with various cult ideologies). If they’re a little matched, there will be some transfer. But the transfer is only maximized when the two systems are matched. Some kinds of brains go wild when presented with, say, religious fervor, but are indifferent to anything else. Others when paired with the right economic ideology. And apparently, some brains go wild when paired with rationalism. I have a relative who spent time in Scientology. One of the smartest people I know (especially when he was younger). It’s hard to fathom how someone like that could get sucked in–and yet he did. Even today, he sometimes reminisces on it, and once basically tried to “sell” me on it, despite being out of the cult for decades. Just total nonsense. But somehow it was matched to his brain and never quite left it. Sometimes I wonder if there’s an equivalent mind virus that would work on me, despite all my defenses. ---
**Author:** ![Spice\_Weasel](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spice_weasel/32/5435_2.png) [@Spice\_Weasel](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spice_Weasel)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/130 "2025-08-15T00:35:25Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I have a relative who spent time in Scientology. One of the smartest people I know (especially when he was younger). It’s hard to fathom how someone like that could get sucked in–and yet he did. I think the answer is always some kind of social pressure. If you spend some time in isolation and suddenly you have a community, a _family,_ it’s a very powerful drug. It’s not something you can be reasoned out of. I think the victim would have to realize he’s not as beloved as he thinks he is or that the relationships themselves were bad, in order to break free of the beliefs. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/131 "2025-08-15T00:38:37Z")
Probably true. As a child, he was vastly more gifted than his family. He went to MIT and a professor indoctrinated him. There’s a good chance that he finally felt he was among peers there. He was also not around his family at the time. ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/132 "2025-08-15T00:38:43Z")
Oh, I’ve been in and out of matching my brain to so many various trips in my lifespan that now I’m frankly tired of it all. In my old age I’ve settled down to my one tried and true brainmatch: Δ9-tetrahydrocannabinol . Helps take life a bit easier. ---
**Author:** ![nearwildheaven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/90db22/32.png) [@nearwildheaven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nearwildheaven)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 2:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/133 "2025-08-15T02:11:57Z")
And that’s why cults often target college students. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/134 "2025-08-15T13:11:53Z")
> [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > I have a relative who spent time in Scientology. One of the smartest people I know (especially when he was younger). It’s hard to fathom how someone like that could get sucked in–and yet he did. Being smart is a double edged sword: it makes it easier to reject obviously nonsensical beliefs and weigh evidence, but once you are emotionally invested in a belief, it makes you better able to defend it from counterarguments and rationalize away contrary evidence. > [@Dr.Strangelove](#): > > Sometimes I wonder if there’s an equivalent mind virus that would work on me, despite all my defenses. How do you know it hasn’t already? 😉 I believe this is true. We are not all vulnerable to the same ideas, but we are all vulnerable. > [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If you spend some time in isolation and suddenly you have a community, a _family,_ it’s a very powerful drug. It’s not something you can be reasoned out of. Ah, that makes sense. This 100% fits the Ziz cult. And perhaps explains attachment to various niche political ideologies - they similarly provide a community of like-minded people, united by a common goal of improving the world. ---
**Author:** ![Jackmannii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jackmannii/32/311_2.png) [@Jackmannii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jackmannii)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 2:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/135 "2025-08-15T14:43:10Z")
I’m sure a lot of “smart” people have been [sucked](http://archive.ph/YPBku) into [these cults](https://www.vice.com/en/article/rod-of-iron-ministries-purchases-property-in-tennessee/). Once upon a time I briefly considered semi-rural Tennessee as a retirement destination. Just imagine living close to these people. ---
**Author:** ![JRDelirious](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jrdelirious/32/9531_2.png) [@JRDelirious](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/JRDelirious)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 3:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/136 "2025-08-15T15:25:04Z")
> [@Spice\_Weasel](#): > > If you spend some time in isolation and suddenly you have a community, a _family,_ it’s a very powerful drug. It’s not something you can be reasoned out of. Yes, the need for “_belonging_” is a mighty driver in many areas of human behavior. > [@DemonTree](#): > > We are not all vulnerable to the same ideas, but we are all vulnerable. And cult leaders and con men are great at “reading” those vulnerabilities. _Better than ourselves._ ---
**Author:** ![Odesio](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/odesio/32/20003_2.png) [@Odesio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Odesio)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 3:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/137 "2025-08-15T15:29:52Z")
> [@Johanna](#): > > A shootout in Vermont turned out to be connected to a radically vegan cult of trans women that splintered from a rationalist movement and is linked to a series of murders. This reads like something I’d expect to see on a right wing conspiracy site or an over-the-top parody. I know it’s true, but had someone written this as a work of fiction we’d all be rolling our eyes over how ridiculous it is. > [@Johanna](#): > > But I cringe because it makes the rest of us sane and law-abiding trans women look bad by association. I don’t want transphobes to use this against us. Yeah, you have to put up with enough made up baloney as it is. Nothing like transphobes having something more concrete to use against you. That sucks, and I’m sorry you have to put up with it. > [@DemonTree](#): > > Being smart is a double edged sword: it makes it easier to reject obviously nonsensical beliefs and weigh evidence, but once you are emotionally invested in a belief, it makes you better able to defend it from counterarguments and rationalize away contrary evidence. I’ve read similar arguments regarding conspiracy theories. They’re not dummies and are often intelligent people who are able to defend their beliefs. I’ve also seen it argued that many cult members weren’t vulnerable loners with low self-esteem who got sucked into the group but apparently that’s not necessarily true. ---
**Author:** ![LSLGuy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lslguy/32/5813_2.png) [@LSLGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LSLGuy)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/138 "2025-08-15T16:23:52Z")
> [@JRDelirious](#): > > > [@DemonTree](#): > > > > We are not all vulnerable to the same ideas, but we are all vulnerable. > > And cult leaders and con men are great at “reading” those vulnerabilities. _Better than ourselves._ Maybe. Or are they pretty much one-trick ponies who cast a wide net and haul in whoever happens to have the right “shape” to not slip through the net? The folks that Marshall Applewhite’s Heaven’s Gate cult collected were different from David Koresh’s Branch Davidians were different from Jim Jone’s Jonestown crowd-followers. Their adherents were all similar in that they had what it takes to join and follow a really over-the-top cult. But I believe each group’s recruiting and retention “secret sauce” was a bunch different. MAGA is not that different from a cult now. With different sauce again. ---
**Author:** ![DemonTree](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/demontree/32/8646_2.png) [@DemonTree](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DemonTree)\ **Post date:** [August 15, 2025, 6:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/139 "2025-08-15T18:39:30Z")
> [@Jackmannii](#): > > I’m sure a lot of “smart” people have been [sucked](http://archive.ph/YPBku) into [these cults](https://www.vice.com/en/article/rod-of-iron-ministries-purchases-property-in-tennessee/). > [@](#): > > In 2017, Moon founded his church in Newfoundland, Pennsylvania, siphoning off hundreds of followers from the main congregation who were willing to make the seemingly radical leap of incorporating high-powered rifles into their spiritual life. It’s beyond parody. A trans vegan murder cult _and_ the Church of the AR-15. Gotta ❤ America. ---
**Author:** ![Dr.Strangelove](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dr.strangelove/32/6613_2.png) [@Dr.Strangelove](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dr.Strangelove)\ **Post date:** [August 16, 2025, 12:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103/140 "2025-08-16T00:28:56Z")
> [@DemonTree](#): > > How do you know it hasn’t already? 😉 If I am in a cult, it’s a really unpopular one. Just one member. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-ziz-cult/1014103.md?page=8)