# The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713 "2016-06-29T16:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 10
**Author:** ![Reluctant\_A](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@Reluctant\_A](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Reluctant_A)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/181 "2016-06-30T22:18:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Sorry, not acceptable, that is not a proper request. That is trying to intimidate someone into touching you. Bullshit. ---
**Author:** ![Leaper](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/4bbf92/32.png) [@Leaper](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Leaper)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/182 "2016-06-30T22:21:47Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > Don’t feel you need to defend your beliefs here. You’re just as entitled to those beliefs as anyone else is to their beliefs. I thought this steaming pile of plop of a board had progressed to the point where we allowed others to be who they choose to be, free of ridicule and scorn. I guess not. Well, people tend to react badly when they’re being called rapists and whores. Funny, that. ETA: And I still don’t get how a silent, physical, non-invasive offer is more, let alone significantly more, intimidating than asking a question out loud, which is more likely to get the attention, and thus reaction, of others around you. Seriously, imagine yourself going into the deepest, most echo-y echo chamber of so called “social justice warriors” and make this argument. Do you seriously think they’re more likely to applaud and agree, or accuse you of being a parody troll? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/183 "2016-06-30T22:25:38Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Sorry, not acceptable, that is not a proper request. That is trying to intimidate someone into touching you. It’s a very nasty thing to do. If men would only get into their heads that the only acceptable way to touch a woman is to get her actual permission, there would be a lot less problems in the world. Of course, a lot of jerks would no longer be able to molest people also. I totally agree. Thankfully, society has developed a very quick gesture that serves as a request for permission for a handshake – it’s called the handshake offer. When a person puts forward their hand (without forcing contact), that is requesting permission for a handshake. This request can be denied. If someone forces it, they are a jerk. But just a request is a request, which is what you are asking for. So I do what should solve this problem for everyone – I do the shorthand request gesture that doesn’t offend or insult any woman I’ve heard from. A verbal request would insult/offend many women, so I don’t do that. I don’t want to offend or discomfit women, so I’m very happy that society has developed this shorthand handshake-permission gesture. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/184 "2016-06-30T22:25:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Luckily, **ZPG Zealot** , you don’t need an interpreter – when a man puts out his hand without invading your personal space, without touching you (or even close), then he’s asking “would you like to shake hands?” So, from now on, you can translate this in your mind as a question asking if you’d like to shake hands, and you are free to say “no”. > > If he does touch you without your consent, then I totally agree that he is in the wrong. > > Hopefully this has been helpful, and can help avoid miscommunications in the future! This. And she can politely decline. And if a man does this, he doesn’t offend feminists who would like their college to treat them the same as they treat all other colleagues in public. ZPG, cultural sensitivity runs both ways. You live in a culture where it is normal and common for strangers to shake hands. It is unfair of you to judge people poorly for behavior because you grossly misunderstand it. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/185 "2016-06-30T22:30:43Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Sorry, not acceptable, that is not a proper request. That is trying to intimidate someone into touching you. It’s a very nasty thing to do. If men would only get into their heads that the only acceptable way to touch a woman is to get her actual permission, there would be a lot less problems in the world. Of course, a lot of jerks would no longer be able to molest people also. See, this is a perfect example of your grossly misunderstanding a common communication and reacting inappropriately to it. A proffered hand is not intimidating, unless you choose to be intimidated. I have politely turned down handshakes. I have seen others politely decline. It is quite easy, and so long as you say why you are declining (“i don’t shake hands”, “i have pink eye and don’t want to share”, “I’m sorry, i have a painful rash”) no offense will be taken. ---
**Author:** ![El\_Kabong](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/el_kabong/32/496_2.png) [@El\_Kabong](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/El_Kabong)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/186 "2016-06-30T22:31:47Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > Don’t listen to that guy. He’s a known spoilsport, stick in the mud, and he’s been known to consort with whores. He’s a handshaker? I’ve always suspected that about him. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/187 "2016-06-30T22:33:39Z")
Maybe **ZPG Zealot** doesn’t know how to turn down a hand shake request. Here’s how it’s done: 1. Don’t shake the offered hand. 2. (optional) Say “I don’t shake hands”. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/188 "2016-06-30T22:34:28Z")
> [@Morgenstern](#): > > I thought this steaming pile of plop of a board had progressed to the point where we allowed others to be who they choose to be, free of ridicule and scorn. I guess not. Nice example of why it’s taking longer than we thought. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/189 "2016-06-30T22:35:45Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe **ZPG Zealot** doesn’t know how to turn down a hand shake request. Here’s how it’s done: > > 1. Don’t shake the offered hand. > 2. (optional) Say “I don’t shake hands”. Whenever she does this, the guy supposedly gets all huffy. :rolleyes: ---
**Author:** ![Frank](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/3d9bf3/32.png) [@Frank](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frank)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/190 "2016-06-30T22:35:52Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > It is quite easy, and so long as you say why you are declining … This is the problem, isn’t it? “I do not accept your offer to rape me,” is not a particularly polite way of declining a handshake. ---
**Author:** ![madsircool](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/madsircool/32/3432_2.png) [@madsircool](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/madsircool)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/191 "2016-06-30T22:37:51Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I don’t play mixed sports (or do anything else that’s going to cause me to have physical contact with a male), so I don’t have to make that distinction. When I was child in school, I hated, hated, hated, anything co-ed because it was frequently used as an opportunity for the boys to molest the girls and the schools did nothing. They thought it was funny. It was the first time I really understand how to hate. Imagine how I felt when a female doctor told me to turn my head and cough. Her hands were cold and the guys shriviled up like a couple of prunes. She smiled politely. I blushed and swore to never try out for football again. I never understood that it was a chance for the girls to get revenge against the guys. I want to hate her for it but i enjoy her early morning visits in my dreams. If only the other women who had me by the balls were so gentle. :eek::eek: ---
**Author:** ![digs](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/digs/32/14889_2.png) [@digs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/digs)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/192 "2016-06-30T22:38:15Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You completely misunderstand. The message I was trying to send is that men, well actually everybody in general, should err on the side of caution in how their behavior can effect those around them especially those they don’t know. This sounds very rational, and kind. And if this was all you’d posted, I’d be applauding. But I’ve read almost everything you’ve written on this board, and though you are, umm, vigilant about your own dislikes, nowhere have I noticed you caring about anyone else’s feelings. ---
**Author:** ![wonky](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wonky/32/393_2.png) [@wonky](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wonky)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/193 "2016-06-30T22:42:17Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe **ZPG Zealot** doesn’t know how to turn down a hand shake request. Here’s how it’s done: > > 1. Don’t shake the offered hand. > 2. (optional) Say “I don’t shake hands”. The problem is that she believes that women who shake hands are whores. So she can’t just accept some reasonable solution for refusing a handshake. It’s not just that offering to shake her hand is rape. Hands are being shaken by disgusting, slutty women. So she’s trying to find a way to put the question into your head so that you will start avoiding shaking hands with women. Because it’s wrong to shake hands with women. She’s not content not to shake hands. She wants to control whether I shake hands, as well. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/194 "2016-06-30T22:55:12Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Whenever she does this, the guy supposedly gets all huffy. :rolleyes: Then those guys are jerks. ---
**Author:** ![kambuckta](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/53a042/32.png) [@kambuckta](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kambuckta)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/195 "2016-06-30T22:59:35Z")
Well, my take on it is ZPG has some very deep-seated issues regarding being touched by men, and I’m not going to speculate where they arose. However, in a form of denial or whatever, has intellectually processed those issues as a societal problem, and not one that is pretty unique to her (given the responses on this board alone, and I imagine throughout most societies in the world). As long as she perceives the problem to be outside of her and not one of her own neuroses, she doesn’t really need to dwell upon it too much…and can throw names like rapist and whore around willy-nilly, retreating to spurious ‘cultural’ reasons as needed. It’s pretty clear that ZPG is a very disturbed individual, and I’m going to bow out of this thread now because one cannot argue rationally with someone who is so seriously damaged. kam ---
**Author:** ![Cazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cazzle/32/75_2.png) [@Cazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cazzle)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/196 "2016-06-30T23:00:23Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then those guys are jerks. You really think she smiles and politely says “I don’t shake hands, sorry” to the probable rapist who just shamed her as a prostitute in front of everyone else in the room? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/197 "2016-06-30T23:00:33Z")
> [@Frank](#): > > This is the problem, isn’t it? “I do not accept your offer to rape me,” is not a particularly polite way of declining a handshake. Well, of course, you don’t HAVE to give any reason. But if you don’t offer a reason, the other person will quite reasonably assume that you hold some grudge against him. Thus, it is more polite to explain “it’s not you, it’s me.” Of course, if she thinks it IS him, I see her problem. Except, of course, it is her, she is simply refusing to understand the common language “spoken” in the US > [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Then those guys are jerks. Yes, of course. ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/198 "2016-06-30T23:16:51Z")
> [@octopus](#): > > What about during basketball or a pickup game of football and you make a good play. Is it offensive to get a friendly pat on the backside and a compliment such as “nice hustle?” Actually, it was originally “nice bustle,” but that was seen as TOO gay. Grabass is okay if you hide it under the veneer of sports. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 30, 2016, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/199 "2016-06-30T23:25:24Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > The problem is that she believes that women who shake hands are whores. So she can’t just accept some reasonable solution for refusing a handshake. It’s not just that offering to shake her hand is rape. Hands are being shaken by disgusting, slutty women. So she’s trying to find a way to put the question into your head so that you will start avoiding shaking hands with women. Because it’s wrong to shake hands with women. > > She’s not content not to shake hands. She wants to control whether I shake hands, as well. That’s my issue with her. In the other thread she was suggesting that we should have a sexually segregated society- instead of acknowledging that maybe her issue is her own. ---
**Author:** ![Kimstu](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/ecd19e/32.png) [@Kimstu](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimstu)\ **Post date:** [July 1, 2016, 12:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/200 "2016-07-01T00:05:51Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Maybe **ZPG Zealot** doesn’t know how to turn down a hand shake request. Here’s how it’s done: > > 1. Don’t shake the offered hand. > 2. (optional) Say “I don’t shake hands”. Except that (2) is **not** optional. In fact, it needs to be prefaced by “Sorry” or “Excuse me” or some other conciliatory phrase. I’ll let [Miss Manners explain why](https://news.google.com/newspapers?nid=1980&dat=19940705&id=BYoiAAAAIBAJ&sjid=8K0FAAAAIBAJ&pg=1463,893161&hl=en): > [@](#): > > To refuse to shake hands is etiquette’s second-highest symbolic insult, right up there next to slapping someone across the face with one’s gloves. […] Miss Manners […] might have let [the refusal] pass had this person exclaimed apologetically “Oh dear, I’m afraid I can’t shake your hand; please forgive me”. [Furthermore](http://www.uexpress.com/miss-manners/2009/8/4/when-charities-get-relentless): > [@](#): > > DEAR MISS MANNERS: […] How can I politely refuse to shake one’s hand without offending them? […] > > GENTLE READER: […] What you need is an apology – in this case, “I’m so sorry, I can’t shake hands.” That said, I actually agree that the handshake ideally ought to be replaced in American etiquette with some other egalitarian gesture of mutual respect that doesn’t involve actual touching of another person. I personally am fine with handshakes, but I can see how they’re unnecessarily problematic in some respects. Disease transmission, immunity problems, and diverse cultural backgrounds are all good reasons why it would be better to have a standard gesture of greeting that doesn’t involve rubbing our dirty paws on those of other people. However, for the present it happens that the handshake **is** our standard gesture of greeting, and abstaining from it without explanation conventionally signals deliberate insult. So refusing to shake hands without offering at least a routine and token acknowledgement and apology for the refusal is rude. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=9) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=11)