# The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713 "2016-06-29T16:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 15
**Author:** ![Great\_Antibob](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e47c2d/32.png) [@Great\_Antibob](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Great_Antibob)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 4:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/281 "2016-07-02T16:41:08Z")
> [@Captain\_Amazing](#): > > It’s clearly not legally attempted rape. She’s saying she finds an unwanted handshake as offense as she finds a rape. I don’t, but I’m not going to tell somebody else what they should or shouldn’t be offended by. No, it’s worse than that. She’s claimed that even the _offer_ of a handshake is offensive. I totally understand not wanting to accept one or being put out by somebody insisting on one, but finding offense at the mere _offer_, especially in Western society, is fucking nuts. If she wants to be offended by that, fine, but by the same token, nobody should have to respect that position at all or defend it. Maybe there’s a fuzzy line in what cultural differences we should abide and shouldn’t abide, but this is definitely way over even that fuzzy line. Hell, I’m from an Asian background. Handshakes are a relatively new thing, as is any physical contact. But you know what is ALSO part of that culture? Accepting a friendly act in good faith, even if it doesn’t match your own beliefs. You have to respect other people’s beliefs and norms if you want them to accept your own. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/282 "2016-07-02T17:08:23Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > So your employer has an actual policy that states handshaking is a violation of workplace conduct unless permission is explicitly asked and given? We have a detailed policy against sexual harassment that forbids implied aggression or “guilting” someone into physical contact though it doesn’t get more explicit than that and such matters are usually decided on a case by case basis. It does state that repeated attempts at physical contact with another person who has already said no is a form harassment and grounds for termination. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/283 "2016-07-02T17:11:44Z")
> [@Ann\_Hedonia](#): > > I think the most interesting part of the ZPG POV is that the woman is a palm reader by profession. She literally makes her living by touching people’s hands. There’s a hooker joke in there somewhere. You don’t got to touch a palm to read it. Every male client I have every done a hand reading on has really loved the array of alchemy tools I sometimes use on them. Over time I started using them when I work with women because they were requested so often. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/284 "2016-07-02T17:18:16Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You don’t got to touch a palm to read it. Every male client I have every done a hand reading on has really loved the array of alchemy tools I sometimes use on them. Over time I started using them when I work with women because they were requested so often. Wait, you’re also an alchemist? That certainly explains the odd notions. 😃 ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/285 "2016-07-02T17:21:23Z")
> [@jsgoddess](#): > > You respect women who shake hands with men? Not particular, but we all work with people we don’t like or think are idiots at some point in our careers. I rather think that is a part of the human experience. What angers me intensely and where I think many of these women are gender traitors is their unwillingness to support women who don’t want to casually touch men. Simple put call when they call me a prude, when they try to put my job in jeopardy because I won’t imitate their casual attitude about sex and body integrity, hell yes, I’ll call them whores and a lot worse (because I honestly don’t find whore that insulting a term , it just means a woman accepts money for sex.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/286 "2016-07-02T17:22:41Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > We have a detailed policy against sexual harassment that forbids implied aggression or “guilting” someone into physical contact though it doesn’t get more explicit than that and such matters are usually decided on a case by case basis. It does state that repeated attempts at physical contact with another person who has already said no is a form harassment and grounds for termination. Sounds like a good policy. If you decline a handshake offer (whether the question is verbal or by the common gesture of an open hand extended well short of touching), and they insist or repeat the question, then they are being jerks and should be disciplined. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/287 "2016-07-02T17:23:43Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > Wait, you’re also an alchemist? That certainly explains the odd notions. 😃 No, I am not a alchemist, but sometimes when doing a reading I use some pretty little silver tools largely associated with medieval alchemy to entertain the client and make them more comfortable. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/288 "2016-07-02T17:24:56Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Not particular, but we all work with people we don’t like or think are idiots at some point in our careers. I rather think that is a part of the human experience. What angers me intensely and where I think many of these women are gender traitors is their unwillingness to support women who don’t want to casually touch men. Simple put call when they call me a prude, when they try to put my job in jeopardy because I won’t imitate their casual attitude about sex and body integrity, hell yes, I’ll call them whores and a lot worse (because I honestly don’t find whore that insulting a term , it just means a woman accepts money for sex.) And just like how “whore” is not such an insulting term for you, but it may be considered very insulting by others, many women see a lack of a handshake offer (or a verbal request for a handshake) as insulting or offensive or discomfiting, even though you feel differently. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/289 "2016-07-02T17:31:41Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > And just like how “whore” is not such an insulting term for you, but it may be considered very insulting by others, many women see a lack of a handshake offer (or a verbal request for a handshake) as insulting or offensive or discomfiting, even though you feel differently. Which is why I wouldn’t use the term unless someone else has already started throwing insults. However, if someone else wants to be an immature brat and bring the street into the office, I am not going to back down and cower in a corner. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/290 "2016-07-02T17:33:44Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Which is why I wouldn’t use the term unless someone else has already started throwing insults. That seems reasonable. Hopefully you recognize that this is why some men offer handshakes (without forcing any touch) to women – because they have good reason to believe that to ask verbally, or to not offer it at all, is offensive/insulting/discomfiting to some women. It can be hard to navigate different cultures, but many of us sincerely try to do our best but nonetheless will sometimes inadvertently offend or insult someone. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/291 "2016-07-02T17:33:58Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Not particular, but we all work with people we don’t like or think are idiots at some point in our careers. I rather think that is a part of the human experience. What angers me intensely and where I think many of these women are gender traitors is their unwillingness to support women who don’t want to casually touch men. Simple put call when they call me a prude, when they try to put my job in jeopardy because I won’t imitate their casual attitude about sex and body integrity, hell yes, I’ll call them whores and a lot worse (because I honestly don’t find whore that insulting a term , it just means a woman accepts money for sex.) Listen you fucking moron, nobody here has a problem with you not wanting to shake hands with men (or anyone else, for that matter). What people have a problem with is the notion that it’s somehow insulting for a man to even OFFER his hand to a woman. THAT is what pisses people off. That you somehow find it an imposition to say, “I’m sorry, but I don’t shake hands”, and want the majority to adher to an obscure (in this culture) practice is simply fucking insane. You’re not a prude – you’re just fucking insane. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/292 "2016-07-02T17:36:57Z")
> [@Velocity](#): > > **ZPG Zealot,** what you’re demanding is impractical. You say that men should ask before even offering a hand to be shaken, but there are women who would be offended at being treated \*that \*way, too. And imagine President Obama shaking hands with well-wishers. With lines that long, wouldn’t he have to ask like 200 times, since he’d encounter hundreds of women in the crowded line of people greeting the President? > > Also, I’ve heard feminists clamor for many things, but I have never known someone to draw the line at hand-shaking like you. What is it about hand-shaking? Why are you so adamant about this particular one thing? Whose says this is the only thing I am adamant about. Heck, I would like to make rape a capital crime. It bothers me so much because it’s a way of conditioning women to accept unwanted physical contact. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/293 "2016-07-02T17:42:20Z")
> [@Guinastasia](#): > > Listen you fucking moron, nobody here has a problem with you not wanting to shake hands with men (or anyone else, for that matter). What people have a problem with is the notion that it’s somehow insulting for a man to even OFFER his hand to a woman. THAT is what pisses people off. That you somehow find it an imposition to say, “I’m sorry, but I don’t shake hands”, and want the majority to adher to an obscure (in this culture) practice is simply fucking insane. > > You’re not a prude – you’re just fucking insane. Listen you fucking misogynist, what you have a problem with is the idea that men should be responsible in their actions toward women. In all matters involving physical contact it behooves the person seeking to touch the other to obtain clear and definite permission first. Nonverbal communication simply isn’t going to be accurate enough. Plenty of people can intimidate and threaten with a smile. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/294 "2016-07-02T17:45:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Listen you fucking misogynist, what you have a problem with is the idea that men should be responsible in their actions toward women. In all matters involving physical contact it behooves the person seeking to touch the other to obtain clear and definite permission first. Nonverbal communication simply isn’t going to be accurate enough. Plenty of people can intimidate and threaten with a smile. Totally agree – forcing touching is always unacceptable, for a handshake or anything else. Thankfully, the handshake offers (which, again, I offer because to do otherwise, including to ask verbally, would offend/insult/discomfit many women) can be refused very easily. Different cultures are hard, but many of us really try to do our best and don’t force touching on anyone. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/295 "2016-07-02T17:51:45Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Listen you fucking misogynist, what you have a problem with is the idea that men should be responsible in their actions toward women. In all matters involving physical contact it behooves the person seeking to touch the other to obtain clear and definite permission first. Nonverbal communication simply isn’t going to be accurate enough. Plenty of people can intimidate and threaten with a smile. Great, now we’re in an episode of “Three’s Company”. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/296 "2016-07-02T17:57:54Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > Totally agree – forcing touching is always unacceptable, for a handshake or anything else. Thankfully, the handshake offers (which, again, I offer because to do otherwise, including to ask verbally, would offend/insult/discomfit many women) can be refused very easily. > > Different cultures are hard, but many of us really try to do our best and don’t force touching on anyone. In my experience because a certain type of male entitlement and misogyny refusals frequently result in awkward public scenes, far more discomforting than a mild question and not without drawing unwanted attention to the woman. In situations where public touching is involved it is always best to err on the side of caution and not touch or imply touching. A quick question might momentarily annoy some women though honestly never anywhere in the world I have been have I ever encountered a woman that found it bad that a man believed her consent was necessary. Creating a scene, or worse forcing contact on a woman who believes it is wrong could have intensely negative consequences for her. You are placing her in a position where she has to choose between a job necessary to support herself and her family and whoring her body out, breaking her marriage vows, etc. ---
**Author:** ![Chimera](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/8e8cbc/32.png) [@Chimera](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chimera)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/297 "2016-07-02T17:58:30Z")
I still want to know about a fist bump. Terroristic? inappropriately aggressive? Open assault? War Crime? ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/298 "2016-07-02T18:08:13Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In my experience because a certain type of male entitlement and misogyny refusals frequently result in awkward public scenes, far more discomforting than a mild question and not without drawing unwanted attention to the woman. In situations where public touching is involved it is always best to err on the side of caution and not touch or imply touching. A quick question might momentarily annoy some women though honestly never anywhere in the world I have been have I ever encountered a woman that found it bad that a man believed her consent was necessary. Creating a scene, or worse forcing contact on a woman who believes it is wrong could have intensely negative consequences for her. You are placing her in a position where she has to choose between a job necessary to support herself and her family and whoring her body out, breaking her marriage vows, etc. …getting beaten to death… ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/299 "2016-07-02T18:12:45Z")
> [@Skywatcher](#): > > …getting beaten to death… In my years of working with battered women I have seen some evil cases. It doesn’t excuse the abuser of his crimes, but people should consider how their actions may affect other people. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [July 2, 2016, 6:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/300 "2016-07-02T18:14:33Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In my years of working with battered women I have seen some evil cases. It doesn’t excuse the abuser of his crimes, but people should consider how their actions may affect other people. And we’re the misogynists. Jesus. You’re a loon. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=14) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=16)