# The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713 "2016-06-29T16:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/21 "2016-06-29T17:31:55Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > First, demonstrate existing harm. The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/22 "2016-06-29T17:32:44Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > …Gloves change things. I sometimes use gloves to shake hands with a male I am not related before witnesses to in order to symbolize a deal is done when there is no written contact, but it’s a not a frivolous greeting, but a very serious gesture that comes at the end of long, formal dealings. That’s quite interesting. So you are saying not only that you find a handshake to be, generally speaking, inappropriate social touching, but also you take it to be an extremely serious social interaction. I confess, I think of a handshake in business as the equivalent of saying “hi, nice to meet you” in a social setting. That is, a polite but nearly meaningless gesture. I am familiar with the idea of shaking to seal a deal, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually done that. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/23 "2016-06-29T17:35:24Z")
My hope is that **ZPG Zealot** will realize that some men are offering a handshake (without demanding that it be accepted, and without throwing a tantrum) because their experience has clearly demonstrated to them that taking any other action, including asking if a handshake is okay, would be much more likely to offend or make uncomfortable a woman. She certainly doesn’t have to shake anyone’s hand, but hopefully she will realize that some handshakes are offered expressly because the men reasonably believes, based on input from other women, that this is the best course of action to minimize offense and uncomfortable feelings by women. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:35pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/24 "2016-06-29T17:35:32Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her. I suggested that you not touch, but decline politely, mentioning your different cultural understanding of the gesture, so as not to offend the person offering to shake. I disagree that handshakes lead to sexual harassment, but either way, I feel that you have a viable option that doesn’t rely on changing what the rest of us are accustomed to do. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/25 "2016-06-29T17:36:44Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > My hope is that **ZPG Zealot** will realize that some men are offering a handshake (without demanding that it be accepted, and without throwing a tantrum) because their experience has clearly demonstrated to them that taking any other action, including asking if a handshake is okay, would be much more likely to offend or make uncomfortable a woman. She certainly doesn’t have to shake anyone’s hand, but hopefully she will realize that some handshakes are offered expressly because the men reasonably believes, based on input from other women, that this is the best course of action to minimize offense and uncomfortable feelings by women. I do agree that it is rude an unpleasant for a person to grab your hand without permission, or to throw a hissy fit if he offers his hand and you decline. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/26 "2016-06-29T17:38:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > or to throw a hissy fit if he offers his hand and you decline. Assuming such a thing ever really happens. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:39pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/27 "2016-06-29T17:39:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For the first question, depends on the individuals and the circumstances. In a lot of cases there is definitely a component of sexual assault when someone is forcing someone even of the same gender to shake their hand. Define, “force”. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I view men who immediately upon meeting another man extend their hands as insecure, shallow, or dishonest. It seems like the forced team-building strategies con artist use all the time to lure in their victims. Men…UGH! IKR?! > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > For the second question, I almost never have a man other than my husband hand me something directly. I ask other men to place items on the desk or table and then I pick it up and among many of my male colleagues the university, I don’t even have to ask. Gloves change things. I sometimes use gloves to shake hands with a male I am not related before witnesses to in order to symbolize a deal is done when there is no written contact, but it’s a not a frivolous greeting, but a very serious gesture that comes at the end of long, formal dealings. Queen Elizabeth, Your Highness… Is that you? ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/28 "2016-06-29T17:40:51Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > I do agree that it is rude an unpleasant for a person to grab your hand without permission, or to throw a hissy fit if he offers his hand and you decline. Right – an offered handshake should never be forced, and a woman’s choice (to accept or not accept the offered hand) should be respected. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/29 "2016-06-29T17:42:21Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her. As witnessed thus far by no-one but you. You’ll need to provide actual evidence, not personal opinion stated as fact. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/30 "2016-06-29T17:46:03Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > That’s quite interesting. > > So you are saying not only that you find a handshake to be, generally speaking, inappropriate social touching, but also you take it to be an extremely serious social interaction. I confess, I think of a handshake in business as the equivalent of saying “hi, nice to meet you” in a social setting. That is, a polite but nearly meaningless gesture. > > I am familiar with the idea of shaking to seal a deal, but I don’t think I’ve ever actually done that. The thing is for a supposedly meaningless gesture, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on it. (At least on the Dope in real life the only people I’ve noticed putting emphasis on the concept seem to do so as part of their power struggle against women). In my culture handshaking is an extremely serious social interaction. Most business within our community is done with oral contracts and shaking hands in public is the contract. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/31 "2016-06-29T17:46:20Z")
> [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > The idea that women must for politeness sake tolerate men touching them does an incredible amount of harm. It makes it easier for women to be preyed upon and it conditions them to accept that their bodies are not their own. Forcing a woman to shake hands with a man in order to get a job interview is just the beginning of the process of sexually harassing her. Literally none of this is true. I’d urge you to get a grip but, well, y’know… ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/32 "2016-06-29T17:46:35Z")
> [@iiandyiiii](#): > > I’m certainly open to such change, and if I ever have reason to believe that the action least likely to offend women is to refrain from offering handshakes, or to ask first, then I certainly would change my behavior. My behavior is 100% driven by the desire to not offend women or make them uncomfortable. > > But since the data I have right now clearly indicates (to me – since the data is anecdotal, I wouldn’t insist anyone else accept it) that the action least likely to offend women is to offer a handshake without asking, then I must continue to do so. Again, 100% driven by the desire to not offend women or make them uncomfortable. My own experience has been in offending men with the offer to shake hands. Some cultures don’t touch the opposite sex. I suspect I’m no less sexually intimidating to those men with my handshake than men offering handshakes are to ZPG. So, unless I am the one giving the job interview, my hands stay by my sides. If offered, I’ll accept the hand. With a job interview, its expected. You have a strange catch twenty two. The lack of a handshake is going to throw anyone expecting it off, you can’t ask, because its probing into religion and attitudes about sex HR gets nervous about. So you stick out your hand. But when I’m the applicant, I wait and respond. I really can’t think of many times other than a job interview and closing a deal where shaking hands is expected and its odd not to. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/33 "2016-06-29T17:48:47Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Literally none of this is true. I’d tell you to get a grip but, well, y’know… Mansplain much do we? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/34 "2016-06-29T17:49:04Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The thing is for a supposedly meaningless gesture, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on it. (At least on the Dope in real life the only people I’ve noticed putting emphasis on the concept seem to do so as part of their power struggle against women). In my culture handshaking is an extremely serious social interaction. Most business within our community is done with oral contracts and shaking hands in public is the contract. Well, it’s meaningless, except that it would be sort of rude not to, as it is rude to refuse to greet someone verbally. That’s why I suggest you offer some explanation when you decline, to make it clear that you are declining for cultural, not personal, reasons. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/35 "2016-06-29T17:49:46Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The thing is for a supposedly meaningless gesture, there’s a lot of emphasis placed on it. (At least on the Dope in real life the only people I’ve noticed putting emphasis on the concept seem to do so as part of their power struggle against women). In my culture handshaking is an extremely serious social interaction. Most business within our community is done with oral contracts and shaking hands in public is the contract. For clarity and frame of reference, would you be kind enough to explain what your culture is? ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/36 "2016-06-29T17:51:40Z")
Oh, and in case it’s not obvious, I am a woman. I am also an American, and a Reform Jew, and grew up in a mostly non-Jewish community in the North East. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/37 "2016-06-29T17:52:08Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > My own experience has been in offending men with the offer to shake hands. Some cultures don’t touch the opposite sex. I suspect I’m no less sexually intimidating to those men with my handshake than men offering handshakes are to ZPG. So, unless I am the one giving the job interview, my hands stay by my sides. If offered, I’ll accept the hand. > > With a job interview, its expected. You have a strange catch twenty two. The lack of a handshake is going to throw anyone expecting it off, you can’t ask, because its probing into religion and attitudes about sex HR gets nervous about. So you stick out your hand. But when I’m the applicant, I wait and respond. > > I really can’t think of many times other than a job interview and closing a deal where shaking hands is expected and its odd not to. You might talk to your HR about the “probing into religion and attitudes about sex” issue. My HR department said a long time ago as long as the question is poised with the generic, “Do you shake hands?” without reference to religion or gender it’s quite all right, in fact preferred as it eliminates the possibility that you will insult someone who doesn’t feel comfortable touching another person. ---
**Author:** ![raventhief](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/raventhief/32/4_2.png) [@raventhief](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raventhief)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/38 "2016-06-29T17:54:01Z")
ZPG, thanks for answering my questions. As a woman, I see myself as far, far more than just a vagina wrapped in other body parts (how’s that for a mental image?) but I have to say, I think for you the vagina part is far more important than any other. Therefore, all physical contact must perforce be sexual. As I said in the other thread, YOU are the one making even innocent gestures into some sort of sexual transaction. I am all for respecting other cultural norms. However, when the actions of a woman disagree with YOUR norms, you attack, implying that we are [traitors to our sex](http://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=19442061&postcount=151). As I said, my sex is NOT the most important thing about me. I am not a “mascot” for the eeeevvvil men. I am a woman who differs from your opinion of “how women should act.” I am not suggesting that you “allow yourself to be forced” into handshakes. Kindly don’t suggest that women who \*do \*shake hands are somehow evil. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/39 "2016-06-29T17:54:13Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > As witnessed thus far by no-one but you. You’ll need to provide actual evidence, not personal opinion stated as fact. OK, its a second personal opinion, but I agree with her. I’ve taught my daughter that she controls who touches her. That would include handshakes - which I have no issue with myself. We’ve taught her this from a young age, because inappropriate tickling, pulling hair, pushing - becomes smacks on the ass at work and dry humping in the subway when you are older. Or the more insidious “let me watch what you are doing on the computer while I touch your shoulder and lean in and see what color bra you have on.” And I don’t want my daughter to ever doubt that it is she who controls her own body. But if I have a cultural prohibition against touching, and you force your touch on me, how is that different than grabbing my boob? I determine what is appropriate to do with my body. ---
**Author:** ![TipTapTwo](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/34f0e0/32.png) [@TipTapTwo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TipTapTwo)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/40 "2016-06-29T17:54:49Z")
Can we all agree the bowing as a greeting is far superior to a handshake? No one ever gets touched, thus it reduces the spread of germs and keeps people’s anxiety down. Wasn’t there another thread somewhere that said that autism was going to rise to 1 in 60something people in America? Would you really want a lower functioning autist to scream or otherwise feel terrible just because you tried to touch him with a handshake? Bowing is the allergen free, vegan dish at a restaurant. Everyone can partake and appreciate it equally. Handshakes are the rare steak, not everyone can enjoy it (Hindu, the immunodeficient, etc) and it might actively offend their sensibility to be innocently offered a bite. And that goes against our motives of sitting down at a table with others to begin with, it is to share with and appreciate others. As a handshake is supposed to be a universally friendly greeting, how friendly is it to playfully punch your well known friend’s shoulder (very)? Now how friendly is it to punch your 90 yr old grandma’s shoulder (not at all)? Thus to truly be a universal greeting of friendship, our act must offend no one (or at least the smallest amount possible). It is not to say that other forms of greeting are not allowed, but that they should be strictly cordoned off so that only the people that you know will take it well, will. So it behooves us to all bow to each other, if we do indeed want to be maximally friendly and thoughtful towards others’ legitimate differences. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=3)