# The ZPG Zealot handshake thread party extravaganza **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [June 29, 2016, 4:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713 "2016-06-29T16:14:18Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/41 "2016-06-29T17:54:50Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You might talk to your HR about the “probing into religion and attitudes about sex” issue. My HR department said a long time ago as long as the question is poised with the generic, “Do you shake hands?” without reference to religion or gender it’s quite all right, in fact preferred as it eliminates the possibility that you will insult someone who doesn’t feel comfortable touching another person. But you would have to ask that of every applicant, not just opposite-sex applicants. Otherwise you would be violating anti-discrimination rules. (You might not get caught, but you’d be doing something wrong.) ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/42 "2016-06-29T17:54:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You might talk to your HR about the “probing into religion and attitudes about sex” issue. My HR department said a long time ago as long as the question is poised with the generic, “Do you shake hands?” without reference to religion or gender it’s quite all right, in fact preferred as it eliminates the possibility that you will insult someone who doesn’t feel comfortable touching another person. It eliminates this possibility, but it also vastly increases the possibility of offending/making uncomfortable someone who isn’t comfortable being asked or not having a handshake offered. Since, in my experience, the latter far outnumbers the former, if I want to minimize the chance of insult/offense/discomfort, I must continue to offer handshakes without asking. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/43 "2016-06-29T17:56:44Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > Mansplain much do we? Hey, you’re the one presuming to speak for every single woman on planet Earth. All I’m doing is asking you to back up your bullshit with something other than your own nut job theories. You think that handshaking etiquette does women _“an incredible amount of harm”?_ Prove it. You think that I, by offering to shake a woman’s hand, am _“[Making] it easier for women to be preyed upon”_? Show me some evidence. And if it turns out you can’t find any such evidence then maybe, just maybe, you ought to accept that the problem is with you and get the fuck over yourself. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/44 "2016-06-29T17:57:09Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > You might talk to your HR about the “probing into religion and attitudes about sex” issue. My HR department said a long time ago as long as the question is poised with the generic, “Do you shake hands?” without reference to religion or gender it’s quite all right, in fact preferred as it eliminates the possibility that you will insult someone who doesn’t feel comfortable touching another person. I’m retired nowadays. But yeah. When I first encountered it, HR got quite uptight about it. The thing is as a woman giving an interview, a male applicant who won’t touch another woman is giving away something that is likely to bias a female manager against him - that he has some highly sexist cultural background. Now, personally, I don’t - I’ve worked with Muslims who won’t touch me and they treat me with all the respect I could ask for. But HR gets nervous. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/45 "2016-06-29T17:58:19Z")
> [@TipTapTwo](#): > > Can we all agree the bowing as a greeting is far superior to a handshake? … I visited Japan several years ago, and on my return, I found myself reflexively bowing (or at least, nodding) to people all the time. 🙂 I’d be okay if we changed to this social norm, but I am not going to blaze that trail. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/46 "2016-06-29T17:58:34Z")
> [@puzzlegal](#): > > Well, it’s meaningless, except that it would be sort of rude not to, as it is rude to refuse to greet someone verbally. That’s why I suggest you offer some explanation when you decline, to make it clear that you are declining for cultural, not personal, reasons. I say, I don’t have physical contact with men I am not married to. Sometimes if asked further questions (from a honest, not mocking position) I’ll clarify that yes, I can break that principal to administer CPR, etc. And I do have one colleague now close male friend, who replied, “Okay, how do you feel about polyandry?” That still cracks me up whenever I think about it. ---
**Author:** ![ZPG\_Zealot](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/e47c2d/32.png) [@ZPG\_Zealot](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZPG_Zealot)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/47 "2016-06-29T18:00:18Z")
> [@Tithonus](#): > > Hey, you’re the one presuming to speak for every single woman on planet Earth. All I’m doing is asking you to back up your bullshit with something other than your own nut job theories. You think that handshaking etiquette does women _“an incredible amount of harm”?_ Prove it. You think that I, by offering to shake a woman’s hand, am _“[Making] it easier for women to be preyed upon”_? Show me some evidence. And if it turns out you can’t find any such evidence then maybe, just maybe, you ought to accept that the problem is with you and get the fuck over yourself. The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand. The evidence is all around you. Look at the problem of date rape on campuses and sexual harassment in the work force. ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/48 "2016-06-29T18:02:52Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > I say, I don’t have physical contact with men I am not married to. Sometimes if asked further questions (from a honest, not mocking position) I’ll clarify that yes, I can break that principal to administer CPR, etc. And I do have one colleague now close male friend, who replied, “Okay, how do you feel about polyandry?” That still cracks me up whenever I think about it. Okay, then I think you have a legitimate beef with any man who doesn’t respect that answer. I don’t think you should hold it against a man if he offers his hand, since many US men are accustomed to doing so and mean no harm. But any man who doesn’t react to that response by taking back his hand and continuing on with whatever ought to have come next is, indeed, presuming on your body and your personal space. ---
**Author:** ![iiandyiiii](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/iiandyiiii/32/7924_2.png) [@iiandyiiii](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iiandyiiii)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/49 "2016-06-29T18:03:02Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand. The evidence is all around you. Look at the problem of date rape on campuses and sexual harassment in the work force. I’d be fine with doing this except that from the input the vast majority of the women I’ve spoken to, they are more likely to be offended if a man asks or does not offer a handshake (including waiting for them to do so) then if a man offers a handshake. So, again, in my quest to minimize the chance of offending/insulting/discomfiting women, the best option statistically for me is to offer a handshake (without demanding it be accepted, and without a tantrum if it is not). ---
**Author:** ![puzzlegal](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/puzzlegal/32/3827_2.png) [@puzzlegal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/puzzlegal)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/50 "2016-06-29T18:05:18Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand. The evidence is all around you. Look at the problem of date rape on campuses and sexual harassment in the work force. Not in a business setting. In a business setting the etiquette is to ignore gender, and to let people’s business roles determine who does what. In a social setting that may be right. I don’t see a lot of random handshakes in social settings, although I understand that used to be more common. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/51 "2016-06-29T18:12:27Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > OK, its a second personal opinion, but I agree with her. Do you also agree with her with respect to not accepting anything a man directly hands you? Like a business card, or meeting outline, or HDMI cable so you can share your presentation on your computer? > [@Dangerosa](#): > > I’ve taught my daughter that she controls who touches her. That would include handshakes - which I have no issue with myself. We’ve taught her this from a young age, because inappropriate tickling, pulling hair, pushing - becomes smacks on the ass at work and dry humping in the subway when you are older. Or the more insidious “let me watch what you are doing on the computer while I touch your shoulder and lean in and see what color bra you have on.” And I don’t want my daughter to ever doubt that it is she who controls her own body. I have trouble making the connection how an introductory/polite handshake is a gateway drug to the very obviously inapropriate sexual harassment you’re describing. > [@Dangerosa](#): > > But if I have a cultural prohibition against touching, and you force your touch on me, how is that different than grabbing my boob? I determine what is appropriate to do with my body. I think we can all agree that cultural prohibitions against touching are a reasonable exception and not a matter of debate here. ---
**Author:** ![Memnon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/f1d935/32.png) [@Memnon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Memnon)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/52 "2016-06-29T18:13:55Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand. Says who? > [@ZPG Zealot](#): > > The evidence is all around you. Look at the problem of date rape on campuses and sexual harassment in the work force. They’re both problems, but neither of them have anything to do with handshakes. That’s the issue here. You’re saying that the convention of offering to shake a woman’s hand on greeting helps condition men to objectify women and makes it more likely that women will be raped. That’s a _gargantuan_ leap, and one for which you’ve provided no evidence whatsoever. Besides, there are countries where men and women who don’t know each other are _forbidden by law_ from shaking hands, and they have rape rates so high they make the worst college campuses look like feminist utopias. How do you explain that? ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/53 "2016-06-29T18:20:20Z")
> [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > The actual etiquette is a man waits for a woman to extend her hand. The evidence is all around you. Look at the problem of date rape on campuses and sexual harassment in the work force. So let me get this straight… If a man extends his hand first, it has sexual pretext. If a woman extends her hand first, magically that dynamic is avoided…? ---
**Author:** ![Typo\_Negative](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/typo_negative/32/484_2.png) [@Typo\_Negative](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Typo_Negative)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/54 "2016-06-29T18:27:25Z")
I meet three people for a business meeting. Two men, one woman. To the men, I offer a handshake. To the woman, I ask if I may offer my hand. Have I show the woman respect? Or have I told her that she is a weak little flower and not an equal of the men? I have told her she is a weak little flower. Where I come from (America), offering your hand is courteous and respectful. To not offer it is rude. If someone were tell me ‘Sorry, I do not shake hands’, I would take no offense. ---
**Author:** ![Anaamika](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/5f9b8f/32.png) [@Anaamika](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Anaamika)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 6:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/55 "2016-06-29T18:32:20Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > Frankly, I don’t care about handshakes. I don’t offer them except in the very few cases where they are appropriate (job interview, closing a deal) because I have run into men in my life who have cultural/religious prohibitions against touching strange women. Its embarrassing for them to turn down a handshake, so I don’t put people in that spot. I am most definitely not getting into this discussion but I wanted to make a point that was relevant to this. What we have now is _choice_. **Dangerosa** can _choose_ not to shake hands, I can _choose_ to shake them. So can anyone else. And that’s all I really ever want, or what any woman wants. A choice to make our own decisions and not have them made for us. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/56 "2016-06-29T19:00:40Z")
> [@QuickSilver](#): > > I think we can all agree that cultural prohibitions against touching are a reasonable exception and not a matter of debate here. But that is what these things are to her, they are a cultural prohibition. She’s Roma. ---
**Author:** ![Dangerosa](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/22d042/32.png) [@Dangerosa](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Dangerosa)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/57 "2016-06-29T19:06:55Z")
> [@Typo\_Negative](#): > > I meet three people for a business meeting. Two men, one woman. To the men, I offer a handshake. To the woman, I ask if I may offer my hand. > > Have I show the woman respect? Or have I told her that she is a weak little flower and not an equal of the men? > > I have told her she is a weak little flower. > > Where I come from (America), offering your hand is courteous and respectful. To not offer it is rude. If someone were tell me ‘Sorry, I do not shake hands’, I would take no offense. Why shake hands at all? I’ve gotten thorough plenty of business meetings without extending my hands for a shake. There are lots of reasons people don’t want to shake hands - arthritis, allergies, they have a cold and don’t want to spread germs. ---
**Author:** ![Skywatcher](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/skywatcher/32/254_2.png) [@Skywatcher](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Skywatcher)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/58 "2016-06-29T19:10:54Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But that is what these things are to her, they are a cultural prohibition. She’s Roma. [This article on discrimination faced by Romani women](http://www.dailytexanonline.com/news/2014/04/21/romani-women-face-discrimination-because-of-cultural-stereotypes-lecturer-says) makes zero mention of shaking hands, FWIW. ---
**Author:** ![QuickSilver](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/quicksilver/32/7832_2.png) [@QuickSilver](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/QuickSilver)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/59 "2016-06-29T19:18:47Z")
> [@Dangerosa](#): > > But that is what these things are to her, they are a cultural prohibition. She’s Roma. While I’m happy to stand corrected, I get the sense this is not what’s at the core of **ZPG Z** ’s position on the subject. ---
**Author:** ![Guinastasia](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/guinastasia/32/5751_2.png) [@Guinastasia](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Guinastasia)\ **Post date:** [June 29, 2016, 7:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713/60 "2016-06-29T19:19:36Z")
I googled the phrase “shaking hands roma” and NOTHING came up about this taboo. Absolutely zilch. She’s full of shit and it’s her own hang-up. > [@ZPG\_Zealot](#): > > In my culture handshaking is an extremely serious social interaction. Most business within our community is done with oral contracts and shaking hands in public is the contract. Ever heard of the phrase, “when in Rome?” You don’t have to shake hands, but demanding that everyone ask before they try to shake hands, just because on the miniscule chance that someone MIGHT be offended is insane. Why it’s such an imposition for you to say, “I’m sorry, in my culture we don’t shake hands with the opposite sex” is beyond me. Nobody is going to be offended. If I were in a community where ZPG’s customs regarding handshakes were the norm, then I would follow that. Here? Nope. If you have a problem with explaining your beliefs, then go someplace were you don’t have to. IF someone just grabs your hand, or whatever, then sure you should be pissed. But simply saying, “Hi, I’m Joe” and reaching out his hand is offensive? I think you get off on being offended. You’re an annoying vapid troll and I don’t believe half of the shit you say. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/the-zpg-zealot-handshake-thread-party-extravaganza/758713.md?page=4)