# Thee, Thou, Thine, and Ye Olde... **URL:** \ **Category:** Cecil's Columns/Staff Reports\ **Created:** [November 25, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197 "2003-11-25T16:18:12Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![InfntJest](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/f05b48/32.png) [@InfntJest](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/InfntJest)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/1 "2003-11-25T16:18:12Z")
Regarding the old/middle English “Thou,” etc., discussed at: [http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m971211c.html](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m971211c.html) I remembered reading that part of the confusion regarding “thou” becoming “you” and “ye” becoming “the” was due to misreading of older English characters. One of the old symbols for the “th” sound - þ (Alt-0254) - appeared similar to the written “y,” so later readers mixed up the pronunciation. It is now believed that “the” was _never_ pronounced “ye,” and the signs saying “Ye Olde Tea Shoppe” are therefore both pretentious _and_ wrong. I found an article discussing this at: > **[Definition of ye | Dictionary.com](https://www.dictionary.com/browse/ye)** > > Definition of ye from Dictionary.com, the world’s leading online source for English definitions, pronunciations, word origins, idioms, Word of the Day, and more. Speculation: The conversion from “thou” to “you” may have a similar story. ---
**Author:** ![DSYoungEsq](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/c6cbf5/32.png) [@DSYoungEsq](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DSYoungEsq)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 5:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/2 "2003-11-25T17:42:20Z")
Speculation being incorrect in this case, since the usage of thou is well documented in written materials. The change to “you” is akin to the similar change found in all West and Central European cultural languages, which adopted the second person plural as second person singluar (formal, or non-intimate), except Spanish which took the bizzare route of adopting instead third person singular (_usted_, short for _vuestra merced_, meaning, “Your Grace.” (I should caution I’m not familiar enough with Portugese to know exactly what transformation occurs there). ---
**Author:** ![Sergio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Sergio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sergio)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 6:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/3 "2003-11-25T18:28:31Z")
In Brazilian Portuguese occurred the same as in Spanish. Vossa Mercê turned successively into vosmecê and você. ---
**Author:** ![Alan\_Smithee](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/2acd7d/32.png) [@Alan\_Smithee](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alan_Smithee)\ **Post date:** [November 25, 2003, 9:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/4 "2003-11-25T21:49:10Z")
I was under the impression that English was fairly odd in that the formal singular/plural form supplanted the intimate singular form instead of the other way around. I was under the impression that in other European languages the intimate form had become or was in the process of becoming less common than the formal. I know this is somewhat the case in German, in which _Sie_, while still widely used, is more restricted in use now than it was a generation or two ago, much as in English, the use of courtesy titles and last names has declined recently. The Staff Report suggests this is not the case in France, noting that "only a good friend calls another Frenchman ‘tu.’ " Was I mistaken? ---
**Author:** ![Sergio](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b77776/32.png) [@Sergio](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sergio)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 2:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/5 "2003-11-27T14:29:58Z")
Not only in France, but in Spain the form of treatment between friends is _tu_ . _Usted_ is used only for persons you have no intimacy. In Germany and in Italy friends treat one another by _du_ and _tu_ , respectively. The forms _Sie_ and _lei_ , wich coincidentally mean _she_ are used as courtesy pronouns. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/6 "2003-11-27T21:38:53Z")
There were two signs for ‘th’ (both corresponding to a different sound)in Middle English, the thorn (Þ,þ ) and the eth (Ð,ð ) and both were used in different dialects of Middle English in the defintive article, i.e. Northern dialect, _The Cursor Mundi_ c.1300: > [@](#): > > Þis are þe maters redde on raw > Þat i thynk in þis bok to draw, > Schortly rimand on þe dede, > For mani er þai her-of to spede. > … East midland, _The Bestiary_ > [@](#): > > Cethegrande is a fis > ðe moste ðat in water is; > ðat tu wuldes seien ge, > gef ðu it soge wan it flet, > … It is easy to see how the thorn could be mistaken for a ‘y’, especially in an elaborate script (also note that though both the example quoted uses exclusively one ‘th’ sound, this was not always the case some dialects would use different ‘th’ sounds for different words). you can also see in the second example the word ‘ðu’ this is the word ‘thou’ and you can see it definetly starts with a ‘th’ sound. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2003, 9:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/7 "2003-11-27T21:41:13Z")
_The Bestiary_ was from c.1250 ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/8 "2003-11-28T21:15:57Z")
> [@](#): > > There were two signs for ‘th’ (both corresponding to a different sound) Every source I have says the two were used interchangeably. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2003, 10:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/9 "2003-11-28T22:01:29Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by John W. Kennedy \* > \*\*Every source I have says the two were used interchangeably. \*\* Well they weren’t (to tell the truth I’d have to look up the exact difference in sound, but it has been discussed on Straight Dope before), I can quote you an example which includes both the thorn and the eth in the same passage. ---
**Author:** ![John\_W.Kennedy](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_w.kennedy/32/1031_2.png) [@John\_W.Kennedy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_W.Kennedy)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/10 "2003-11-29T23:26:04Z")
> [@](#): > > I can quote you an example which includes both the thorn and the eth in the same passage. That doesn’t prove a thing. _Bright’s Old English Grammar & Reader, 3rd Edition,_ a standard collegiate text, says flat-out that the two were used interchangeably, with the _sound_ varying according to context, voiced only when occurring as a single letter between two voiced sounds, except when the first was part of a prefix. The same rule applied to _f_, which could be pronounced as /f/ or /v/, or _s_, which could be pronounced /s/ or /z/. ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2003, 11:51pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/11 "2003-11-29T23:51:16Z")
Hmm, a bit more research tells me that it isn’t entirely agreed upon, some saying the two are largely interchnagable other’s saying that the thorn and eth represent voiced and unvoiced sounds repectively as I have heard: > [@](#): > > In Old English, th was written as two single letters the thorn and the eth, corresponding to the unvoiced and voiced sounds in thing and the [http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/context/4515/0](http://citeseer.nj.nec.com/context/4515/0) I’d have to check this, but perhaps the two only became interchanable at a later date as I have Old English and very early Middle English sources that use both letters in the same passages but after the first half of the thirteenth century writers seem to only use one character for the th sound (including in some cases using the eth in the word ‘the’, something that doesn’t seem to happen beforfe this time). ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2003, 12:12am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/12 "2003-11-30T00:12:13Z")
Acrtuall, it looks like your right I can find counerexamples but most sources say that the two were interchanable. ---
**Author:** ![Pez](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/5e9695/32.png) [@Pez](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pez)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/13 "2003-12-03T14:11:22Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MC Master of Ceremonies \* > It is easy to see how the thorn could be mistaken for a ‘y’, especially in an elaborate script (also note that though both the example quoted uses exclusively one ‘th’ sound, this was not always the case some dialects would use different ‘th’ sounds for different words). I was always under the impression that it was the ð (eth) which was misread into the y (not the þ which look quite different, even in cursive form). BTW Both Þ,þ and Ð,ð are still used in Icelandic today (imported through high middle age clergimen and scholars). ---
**Author:** ![MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/bb73d2/32.png) [@MC\_Master\_of\_Ceremonies](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MC_Master_of_Ceremonies)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2003, 2:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/14 "2003-12-03T14:40:25Z")
It was the thorn, which does a lot like a y when handwritten: [http://www.bartleby.com/61/10/Y0011000.html](http://www.bartleby.com/61/10/Y0011000.html) ---
**Author:** ![Faldage](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/f4b2a3/32.png) [@Faldage](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Faldage)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2003, 7:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/15 "2003-12-04T19:55:19Z")
For a “y” looking þ, see [Tip 5](http://www.geocities.com/CollegePark/Library/2036/periodcallig.html). ---
**Author:** ![dropzone](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dropzone/32/7515_2.png) [@dropzone](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dropzone)\ **Post date:** [December 6, 2003, 4:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/16 "2003-12-06T04:38:34Z")
BTW, welcome aboard, **InfntJest**! Where outside Chicago do you reside? Did you know we Chi-Dopers have a fairly robust practice of RL get-togethers? It would be great to have somebody else to encourage meetings outside of the North Side. (getting pissy about “Ye Olde Whatever” signs seems as good an indication as any that someone will stick around 😉 ) ---
**Author:** ![ftg](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ftg/32/2801_2.png) [@ftg](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ftg)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/17 "2003-12-09T03:24:39Z")
In the era when thorn, etc. were still used, spelling was far from codified. A given writer might use a certain spelling style, but it varied from writer to writer. Ergo, “interchangably” is correct if you are referring to different writers, and frequently correct even when referring to one writer who just didn’t care about spelling. My Chambers Etymological Dict. of the English Language blames printers on the “y” substitution. If they didn’t have any dies of an uncommon letter, they’d substitute one that looked similar. I.e., people reading the handwritten version would have known it wasn’t “y”. ---
**Author:** ![Apollon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e47774/32.png) [@Apollon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Apollon)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 3:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/18 "2003-12-09T03:39:11Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Sérgio \* > \*\* > In Germany and in Italy friends treat one another by _du_ and _tu_ , respectively. The forms _Sie_ and _lei_ , wich coincidentally mean _she_ are used as courtesy pronouns. \*\* “Sie” does not mean “she” when you address someone. It means “they”. “Wie fühlen Sie sich?” would literally translate to “How do they feel?”, and not “How does she feel?”. In order the latter to be the case, the question would have to be “Wie fühlt sie sich?”. For english speakers there is a simple rule on how to know when to address someone as Du or Sie: if you would address the person as “mr” or “mrs” at home, you will address them with “Sie” in Germany/Austria/Switzerland. If you would address them by their first names instead, you will use the “Du”. ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 1:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/19 "2003-12-09T13:50:19Z")
\<\< For english speakers there is a simple rule on how to know when to address someone as Du or Sie: if you would address the person as “mr” or “mrs” at home, you will address them with “Sie” in Germany/Austria/Switzerland. If you would address them by their first names instead, you will use the “Du”. \>\> That’s actually a little simplistic, if you’re talking about American English-speakers. In the U.S., almost everyone is on a first name basis, immediately. The number of times that you would address someone as “Mr” or “Mrs” are very rare and limited… certainly compared to the use of first names in Germany. ---
**Author:** ![RiverRunner](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/977dab/32.png) [@RiverRunner](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/RiverRunner)\ **Post date:** [December 9, 2003, 2:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197/20 "2003-12-09T14:17:09Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by C K Dexter Haven \* > \*\* In the U.S., almost everyone is on a first name basis, immediately. \*\* Yes. This is why we call you **C**. Riv [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thou-thine-and-ye-olde/215197.md?page=2)