# thee, thy, thine, ye (grammar question) **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [October 31, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768 "2002-10-31T23:21:02Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 17\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/1 "2002-10-31T23:21:02Z")
Hello all, I’m a dabbling Wiccan, and of the dozens of variation of the rede I’ve seen, some exclusively use “thy” and “thee” type language, and some use “you” and “your,” but most combine the two. I was wondering if someone could read this and tell me where the use of “ye” or “thy” is appropriate, where its not, and if the comined use is correct. This is the version I most commonly see: Bide ye wiccan laws ye must, in perfect love and perfect trust. Live ye must and let to live, fairly take and fairly give. Form the circle thrice about to keep unwelcome spirits out. To bind thy spell every time, let the spell be spake in rhyme. Soft of eye and light of touch, speak ye little, listen much. Deosil go by the waxing moon, chanting out ye baleful tune. When thy Lady’s moon is new, kiss your hand to her times two. When ye moon rides at her peak, then thy heart’s desire seek. Heed the north winds mighty gale, lock the door and trim the sail. When the wind comes from the south, love will kiss thee on the mouth. When the wind blows from the east, expect the new and set the feast. When the wind blows from the west, Bardic words be at their best! Nine woods in the cauldron go, burn them fast and burn them slow. Elder be thy Lady’s tree, burn it not or cursed ye’ll be. When the wheel begins to turn, soon ye Beltane fires burn. When the wheel hath turned a Yule, light the log, the Horned One rules. Heed ye flower, bush and tree, by the Lady blessed be. Where the rippling waters go, cast a stone, the truth ye’ll know. When ye have and hold a need, harken not to others greed. With a fool no season spend, lest ye be counted as his friend. Merry meet and merry part, bright the cheeks and warm the heart. Mind the threefold law ye should, three times bad and three times good. When misfortune is enow, wear the star upon thy brow. True in love ye ever be, lest thy love be false to thee. Bide ye wiccan laws you must, in perfect love and perfect trust. In these eight words the Wiccan rede fulfill; An it harm none, do what ye will. Thanks! peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![Polycarp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/82dd89/32.png) [@Polycarp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Polycarp)\ **Post date:** [October 31, 2002, 11:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/2 "2002-10-31T23:44:27Z")
Absolutely no expertise in the Rede or in Wiccan lore of any kind, but enough knowledge of Early Modern English to tell you that Thou is singular, Ye plural. Thou, thee, thy, thine are exactly parallel to I, me, my, mine in where they are to be used. Ye is the nominative of which you is the objective, but even at that time you was creeping into nominative use as well. And, though it doesn’t apply in the context you discuss, “you” is a proper EME usage addressing a single person of higher rank or status, in the same sense as French _tu_ and _vous_ are used. (This is scarcely noticeable, though, because the eye simply reads it as the Modern English singular “you.”) ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:14am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/3 "2002-11-01T00:14:33Z")
“Thou, thee, thy, thine are exactly parallel to I, me, my, mine in where they are to be used.” Really? Not having any training in Early Modern English whatsoever, excepting incidental reading of Shakespeare, my instinct is “thou” = singular “you” addressing a person, not the self indicating “I”. Similarly, “thee” = second person singular object, and “thine” = second person singular possessive. Also, from childhood recollection of the “Our Father” prayer, “Our father… hallowed be thy name” does not seem to me as though it would be “translated” as “my name”. Is this all incorrect? Peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/4 "2002-11-01T00:32:08Z")
“Thou, thee, thy, thine are exactly parallel to I, me, my, mine in where they are to be used.” Really? Not having any training in Early Modern English whatsoever, excepting incidental reading of Shakespeare, my instinct is “thou” = singular “you” addressing a person, not the self indicating “I”. Similarly, “thee” = second person singular object, and “thine” = second person singular possessive. Also, from childhood recollection of the “Our Father” prayer, “Our father… hallowed be thy name” does not seem to me as though it would be “translated” as “my name”. Is this all incorrect? Peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/5 "2002-11-01T00:38:35Z")
Most people know of _thee, thy, thou, ye_ and _thine_ from the bible. And the bible was written in King James English–a dialect of the English in many ways quite different from modern English. The bible has been re-translated several times since the original King James Version. So the uses of _thee, thy, thou, ye_ and _thine_ that you would see today would only be meant to imitate King James English–ironically it probably wouldn’t even be correct, at least strictly speaking. Short answer to your question: there is no real _“correct”_ way to use _thee, thy, thou, ye_ and _thine_. It usually comes down to a question of aesthetics and poetics. For example, Mennonites once used _“thee”_ exclusively for all their forms of _you_. And now the long answer. I have an old dictionary that has a listing of all the former Middle English _you_ cases. Notice that the _“you”_ form is still included. BTW in Shakespeare English “thou” is for servants and “you” is considered more respectful–just like in French (don’t ask me how “thou” got in the Our Father, though). Please read: _NOMINATIVE_: thou _NOM. PLURAL_: ye _ACCUSATIVE_: thee _ACC. PLURAL_: you _GENITIVE_: thy(n) _GEN. PLURAL_: your _DATIVE_: thee _DAT. PLURAL_: you If you have any further question about the case names NOMINATIVE, ACCUSATIVE, DATIVE, etc., just consult a dictionary. Hope this has been informative. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/6 "2002-11-01T00:54:09Z")
Jim B, could you give me a sentence using these in context? What confuses me about the Rede is that “thy” and “your” seem to be used interchangably, sometimes even in the same line-- “When thy Lady’s moon is new, kiss your hand to her times two.” Is there any grammatical reason to use one or the other (like who vs whom) or are they really exactly interchangable? Also, “Ye” seems to be used interchangably with “your” and “you” and sometimes even “the”: “Bide ye wiccan laws ye must” “Heed ye flower, bush and tree…” and “When ye have and hold a need…”. thanks! peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![Jim\_B](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/jim_b/32/4338_2.png) [@Jim\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Jim_B)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 1:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/7 "2002-11-01T01:11:01Z")
As I said, it all comes down to poetics and aesthetics. I’m not sure what sentence would put it in the right context for you. But I know the _NOMINATIVE_ is always the subject of the sentence. I guess _Thou art nice_ could put that in the right context. _ACCUSATIVE_ is always the direct object: in _Throw the ball_, “ball” is in the accusative case. _GENITIVE_ is basically the same as our possesive (just think of how you’d use _'s_). And _DATIVE_ is the indirect object: in _Give Dad the phone_, “Dad” is in the _DATIVE_ case and “phone” is in the _ACCUSATIVE_ case. BTW, early scribes used Y to represent _“thorn”_–a letter that was eventually replaced by _th_. Thus _Ye_ would be pronounced as _the_–“YEE” would be incorrect. HTH:) ---
**Author:** ![C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/b2d939/32.png) [@C\_K\_Dexter\_Haven](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/C_K_Dexter_Haven)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 2:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/8 "2002-11-01T02:09:10Z")
Sometimes, a search of the Archives can be helpful… [What do “thou,” “thee,” and “thine” mean, and why don’t we use them anymore?](http://www.straightdope.com/mailbag/m971211c.html) ---
**Author:** ![NajaNivea](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/22d042/32.png) [@NajaNivea](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/NajaNivea)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 3:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/9 "2002-11-01T03:49:10Z")
Yes, and I did read the article in the link. What I did not understand was the ambiguous usage–thy and your being used interchangably (whether one OR the other would have been used at the time, or if they really would have both been used), and the use of “ye” which was NOT covered in the article. Thanks though. peace, ~mixie ---
**Author:** ![clairobscur](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/839c29/32.png) [@clairobscur](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/clairobscur)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 6:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/10 "2002-11-01T06:19:08Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MixieArmadillo \* > \*\*Yes, and I did read the article in the link. What I did not understand was the ambiguous usage–thy and your being used interchangably (whether one OR the other would have been used at the time, or if they really would have both been used), \*\* AFAIK, as it has been originally noted, thy was originally singular and your originally plural, so you would have used “thy house” when adressing John, and “your house” when adressing John and all his family. But over time, you/your became a polite way to adress respected _individual_people instead of thou/thy. Thou/thy eventually dissapeared, but there was an intermediary period during which both where used interchangeably, depending on whom you adressed. As someone stated, it’s exactly similar to the current situation in french (or german, italian, etc…) where tu/ton (thou/thy) and vous/votre (you/your) are both used, in similar circumstances, depending on who you’re adressing. What has always been a mystery to me is the use of “thou” when adressing God (who should be respected more?), but I assume it’s because religion and religious speech is conservative, hence kept adressing God as “thou” because it was how it has always been adressed (I mean before “you” began to be used as a respectful “thou”). Does anyone know? ---
**Author:** ![Margeuerite](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Margeuerite](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Margeuerite)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/11 "2002-11-01T06:46:17Z")
I took a graduate course in the history of the English language last semester, and our professor told us that the familiar forms “thou” and “thy” are used in prayer because people saw (or perhaps wanted to see?) God as a loving, friendly confidante rather than as a distant, harsh Judge. It’s a question of which attributes one wishes to emphasize. There’s probably a much more complex and complete answer than this, but it’s just my two cents. ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 6:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/12 "2002-11-01T06:52:24Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by MixieArmadillo \* > **Also, “Ye” seems to be used interchangably with “your” and “you” and sometimes even “the”: “Bide ye wiccan laws ye must” “Heed ye flower, bush and tree…” and “When ye have and hold a need…”.** In “Heed ye flower, bush and tree”, “ye” is the subject of the command. Normally when giving a command in English, the subject is omitted: “Heed flower, bush and tree” “Ye” is sometimes incorrectly used as an old-sounding replacement for “the”, as in “Come see Ye Olde Gifte Shoppe at the Renaissance Faire.” There used to be a letter that looked sort of like a Y but was pronounced as TH; people saw old texts that spelled “the” using this letter and got the wrong idea. ---
**Author:** ![bordelond](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bordelond/32/150_2.png) [@bordelond](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/bordelond)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 4:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/13 "2002-11-01T16:27:36Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Mr2001 \* > \*\*There used to be a letter that looked sort of like a Y but was pronounced as TH; people saw old texts that spelled “the” using this letter and got the wrong idea. \*\* Exactly … the letter “thorn”. It is still used in modern Icelandic. It looks like this: ```auto oooo oo oo oo oo oooo oo oooooooo oo ooo ooo oo oo ooo oooo ooo ooo ooo oo ooo oo ooo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oooo ooo oo oo oo oo oo oo oo oooo ``` ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 4:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/14 "2002-11-01T16:46:54Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by clairobscur \* > \*\* > What has always been a mystery to me is the use of “thou” when adressing God (who should be respected more?), but I assume it’s because religion and religious speech is conservative, hence kept adressing God as “thou” because it was how it has always been adressed (I mean before “you” began to be used as a respectful “thou”). Does anyone know? \*\* German does it too. > [@](#): > > Vater Unser, der du bist in Himmel Maybe the idea is that you’re on an “intimate” level with G-d? He’s not a stranger. ---
**Author:** ![dougie\_monty](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/439d5e/32.png) [@dougie\_monty](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/dougie_monty)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 8:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/15 "2002-11-01T20:44:44Z")
“Thine” is also used as a possessive adjective when the following word begins with a vowel sound. Thus you would have “thy father” but “thine eyes.” (Cf. _"Mine_ eyes have seen the glory of the coming of the Lord" in “Battle Hymn of the Republic.”) Years ago a short item in the defunct language magazine _Quinto Lingo_ noted that in French–at least Canadian French–God _(Dieu)_ can now be addressed with the familiar _tu,_ but the Virgin Mary (Marie la Vierge) is still _vous._ :rolleyes: The same “plural” polite forms exist in Spanish _(tu, ustedes),_ German _(du, Sie)_ and Russian (ty, Vy). ---
**Author:** ![rowrrbazzle](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/rowrrbazzle/32/414_2.png) [@rowrrbazzle](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rowrrbazzle)\ **Post date:** [November 1, 2002, 10:08pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/16 "2002-11-01T22:08:17Z")
thorn: þ ---
**Author:** ![Ms2001](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ms2001/32/18463_2.png) [@Ms2001](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ms2001)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2002, 12:32am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/thee-thy-thine-ye-grammar-question/134768/17 "2002-11-02T00:32:26Z")
It occurred to me that we still don’t omit the subject of a command all the time. For example: “Don’t you dare mess with me, buddy!” In older texts it was more common: “Get thee to a nunnery!”