# Theists: riddle me this **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [October 18, 2000, 10:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384 "2000-10-18T10:49:21Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 5\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Race\_Bannon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/5f8ce5/32.png) [@Race\_Bannon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Race_Bannon)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384/61 "2000-11-03T04:11:16Z")
> [@](#): > > _John Finnian said_it is possible that God knows something about the childs circumstances that you don’t and therefore, dying is the “right” thing to do. (Perhaps not even as an isolated incident, but considering the world as a whole. Even Hitler was a baby once. I think you blew your whole argument with this last sentence. I think you’re suggesting that God may choose to kill babies like Hitler rather than let them subject the world to their evil (now, how this affects free will - let’s not go there). But, _hello_, God allowed Hitler to live! [sarcasm]Some of us think Hitler’s politics were kind of bad for a few people.[/sarcastic understatement] So what’s your point? God did the world a favor in letting Hitler grow up and attempt to fulfill his dreams? Or God doesn’t care one way or another? Now, compare these: > [@](#): > > , who even says God interferes on a day to day basis with his creation? and > [@](#): > > But let’s suppose the baby in question is dying from a painful disease. Or dies from smoke inhalation, as opposed to being burned alive in a house fire. You can’t have it both ways, either god is indifferent to human suffering, or he intervenes in ways we don’t understand. You’re advocating both points here. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Finnan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@John\_Finnan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Finnan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 9:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384/62 "2000-11-03T09:11:40Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by Doubleclick \* > \*\*So far we are assuming that God is ‘goodness’. > \*\* Yes, but only because that’s one of the assumptions given in the OP. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Just something that crossed my mind…has anyone interprated the Bible this way? \*\* Possibly Devil-worshippers, or something. (I know Satanists aren’t devil-worshippers, hence my avoidance of the term.) ---
**Author:** ![John\_Finnan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/7ea924/32.png) [@John\_Finnan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Finnan)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 9:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384/63 "2000-11-03T09:21:46Z")
> [@](#): > > \*Originally posted by kellymccauley \* > \*\*I think you blew your whole argument with this last sentence. I think you’re suggesting that God may choose to kill babies like Hitler rather than let them subject the world to their evil. But, God allowed Hitler to live! > > So what’s your point? God did the world a favor in letting Hitler grow up and attempt to fulfill his dreams? Or God doesn’t care one way or another? > \*\* Okay, I thought the point was clear. Obviously not. It doesn’t matter that Hitler lived, or Stalin lived or whatever. The specifics of any case isn’t going to shed light on this. The point is that an omniscient God is **always** going to know more about the specifics than you. > [@](#): > > \*\* > Now, compare these:\*\* > > > [@](#): > > > > , who even says God interferes on a day to day basis with his creation? > > **and** > > > [@](#): > > > > But let’s suppose the baby in question is dying from a painful disease. Or dies from smoke inhalation, as opposed to being burned alive in a house fire. > > You can’t have it both ways, either god is indifferent to human suffering, or he intervenes in ways we don’t understand. You’re advocating both points here. Did you even read the post in question??? Let me refresh your memory in case you can’t be arsed scrolling up the page… > [@](#): > > I’d agree. > I don’t think people should be justifying anything in terms of God’s goodness or lack of same. I say again, who are we to judge? Also, who even says God interferes on a day to day basis with his creation? Here, I am making a point in response to the OP. > [@](#): > > **Well that’s a different thing altogether than your OP. > Now, it’s not like I believe this myself, so I’m not arguing from creed here, just playing devil’s advocate.** But let’s suppose the baby in question is dying from a painful disease. Or dies from smoke inhalation, as opposed to being burned alive in a house fire. Here, I am responding to a completely different assumption. (One which, as I said, I don’t believe. I’m just playing Devils Advocate. So I don’t see that it has to be consistant with the previous point.) \*\* [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![jmullaney](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/85e7bf/32.png) [@jmullaney](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jmullaney)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384/64 "2000-11-03T15:31:05Z")
People die. Get over it. ---
**Author:** ![nevermore](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/n/a587f6/32.png) [@nevermore](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/nevermore)\ **Post date:** [November 4, 2000, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384/65 "2000-11-04T12:42:34Z")
**John Finnan** : > [@](#): > > Nicely reasoned, but it could be arguing from false premises completely. Well, so could this whole damn thread. And I’m not “arguing” it (the inconsistency to which you thus responded); I’m presenting it as a possibility assuming circumstances. > [@](#): > > So you’re arguing from arrogance? That’s not playing fair. You’re allowing us to posit an omniscient god but not allowing him to know something you can’t? Basically. It’s circular and I can’t help it, but I can’t conceive of something so great that I couldn’t conceive of it. I just can’t see how God could have a purpose so incomprehensible that if he tried to explain it to me my brain would explode, or something. However, my opinion makes no difference; the image of God I have presupposed in the OP is not my own but that of Western theism. Anyway, my intended point still stands; the “mysterious ways” argument is not a sufficient explaining-away of evil. To this you reply > [@](#): > > Well that’s a different thing altogether than your OP. How so? It’s an extension of it. It’s a response to a response to the OP. How is that a “different thing altogether”? And then you throw in all this useless junk, and if this isn’t trying to “muddy the waters,” I don’t know what is… > [@](#): > > But let’s suppose the baby in question is dying from a painful disease. Or dies from smoke inhalation, as opposed to being burned alive in a house fire. Fine, so where’s the good in the baby getting the disease? Where’s the good in the house going ablaze? The chain starts somewhere, and God can put his finger in anytime, so why doesn’t he? Because it’s for an ultimate good? Where is it, then? You can try to explain them all situationally, but in real life it just doesn’t always make that kind of sense, which is where the whole stupid argument came from. People don’t understand, so they make God “mysterious.” It’s an evasion tactic. That’s all I’m saying. In response to **Doubleclick** : That thought (among others) occurred to me early on in my religious education. My personal favorite was, who says there _is_ a good guy? To reiterate what I said in an old thread: > [@](#): > > y’know, maybe this ain’t the right thread to discuss this in, and maybe it’s just watching “Devil’s Advocate” too much, but… > what if Satan’s not so bad? > what if Satan, and Hell, (assuming they exist) are not so wickedly damnably evil, and all that bad stuff about 'em is just propaganda on God’s part trying to get you on his side? > Maybe God had the whole Bible written, with ALLLLL that bad stuff about Satan, before Satan could get any Pro-Lucifer pamphlets out, thereby ruining his reputation and pretty much screwing him over for any credence with the populace. > Maybe neither is good, or bad. > Maybe they’re just old poker buddies betting on who can get the most souls. If I were to believe in any of that supernatural shtuff, this would be the most convincing scenario for me. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theists-riddle-me-this/37384.md?page=3)