# Theme of \*Dune\* novels - collective uprising over decadent wealth?
**URL:** https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988
**Category:** Cafe Society
**Tags:** books-writing-myths
**Created:** [February 6, 2022, 2:25am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988 "2022-02-06T02:25:14Z")
**Posts on this page:** 20
**Page:** 3
### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 8:55am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/41 "2022-02-08T08:55:49Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> And because ending poverty is something no-one, not even the most talented and well-intentioned leaders, has ever been able to do
Whole societies lived without poverty in the past. Of course, often the sort _without_ leaders…
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Maybe you believe that a system can exist in which nobody is poor.
I know, not believe, that such societies _have_ existed, so I know they _can_ exist.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> In that case, you should write your own science-fiction series.
I don’t have to be a SciFi writer to criticize societies portrayed in SciFi. And in any case, Iain M. Banks already wrote one.
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> _Humans_ , in other words.
Plenty of humans are _not_ selfish dicks.
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Spice is the single most important resource in the Imperium and it’s extremely finite.
Equitably =/= equally.
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> How do you distribute it equitably when the vast majority of it is consumed by a very small proportion of people without whom galactic civilization would rapidly collapse and nobody would have access to it?
By mandating that the necessary proportion is reserved for space travel, and distributing the rest in a _free_ market. Which CHOAM is not.
If space travel is a vital resource, it is essentially a common good, and reserving most spice for maintaining it _is_ an equitable arrangement. As long as space travel is open to all, not reserved for rich assholes and their bootlickers, or run at vast profits.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/42 "2022-02-08T08:58:43Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Whole societies lived without poverty in the past. Of course, often the sort _without_ leaders…
Can you give some examples? I’m honestly curious.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/43 "2022-02-08T09:09:00Z")
Anyway, the reasons worlds like the ones in Dune still have poverty, conflict and oppression is that otherwise they’d be utopias, and utopias make for crappy literature.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/44 "2022-02-08T09:19:04Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Can you give some examples? I’m honestly curious.
Several Southern African H/G groups, like the !Kung, as well as some Native American groups like the Wendat. We also don’t have any evidence for social stratification in some early cities, like the Harrapan civilization and Çatalhöyük.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Anyway, the reasons worlds like the ones in Dune still have poverty, conflict and oppression is that otherwise they’d be utopias, and utopias make for crappy literature.
Economically- and politically-equitable societies still have personal conflicts, and will have interactions with other societies, and it’s certainly possible to write great literature about that kind of thing - Banks certainly managed.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:34am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/45 "2022-02-08T09:34:41Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Several Southern African H/G groups, like the !Kung, as well as some Native American groups like the Wendat. We also don’t have any evidence for social stratification in some early cities, like the Harrapan civilization and Çatalhöyük.
So primitive societies - like the one God Emperor Leto imposed on the galaxy.
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Plenty of humans are _not_ selfish dicks.
Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
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### Author:  [@eburacum45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/eburacum45)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:52am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/46 "2022-02-08T09:52:56Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Economically- and politically-equitable societies still have personal conflicts, and will have interactions with other societies, and it’s certainly possible to write great literature about that kind of thing - Banks certainly managed.
Indeed. I admire the Duniverse, although I’m constantly shouting at the protagonists to stop behaving like idiots; but I love The Culture, a true post-scarcity utopia. On the other hand the Culture is too peaceful within its own borders to make great stories, so the best stories are when they interact with other, more inequitable societies.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/47 "2022-02-08T09:57:42Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Several Southern African H/G groups, like the !Kung, as well as some Native American groups like the Wendat
One could argue that these entire societies were equally poor. Was their quality of life any better than that of poor people in stratified contemporary cultures? Did individuals have greater access to material possessions? And if so, are we sure it wasn’t simply a result of lower population density, thus leading to greater access to resources? I mean, if you throw a dozen people on a small desert island, they’ll probably live better than 10,000 people on the same desert island, regardless of their social structure.
I’d just like to add that I do **not** believe that social stratification is necessary for the existence a complex, technologically advanced and urbanized society; I’m saying that it’s inevitable. I want a society without poor just as much as you do, it’s just that I can’t see it happening.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 9:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/48 "2022-02-08T09:59:15Z")
> [@eburacum45](#):
>
> On the other hand the Culture is too peaceful within its own borders to make great stories, so the best stories are when they interact with other, more inequitable societies.
That’s also the reason why very few Star Trek stories take place on Earth or anywhere else inside the Federation.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 10:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/49 "2022-02-08T10:57:27Z")
> [@eburacum45](#):
>
> On the other hand the Culture is too peaceful within its own borders to make great stories, so the best stories are when they interact with other, more inequitable societies.
Something like _Hydrogen Sonata_ is still a good story even when it’s all Involveds interacting.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> One could argue that these entire societies were equally poor.
Poor societies don’t have city-wide sewerage and enormous public baths and bronze sculpture, like the Harappans.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Was their quality of life any better than that of poor people in stratified contemporary cultures?
Given they weren’t European peasants being worked to death, say, in the case of the Wendat, I’d say definitely.
> [@](#):
>
> Did individuals have greater access to material possessions?
Greater than whom?
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> And if so, are we sure it wasn’t simply a result of lower population density, thus leading to greater access to resources?
The Harappan civilization covered several large cities.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> I’d just like to add that I do **not** believe that social stratification is necessary for the existence a complex, technologically advanced and urbanized society; I’m saying that it’s inevitable.
I’m saying it isn’t. That it’s not an immutable law of how complex societies are organized. That we can do better. We know because we _did_, in the past. The Harappan civilization was as technologically advanced as its Egyptian or Mesopotamian contemporaries. Better, in some ways, like sanitation. But no evidence of social stratification.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 11:01am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/50 "2022-02-08T11:01:58Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> So primitive societies - like the one God Emperor Leto imposed on the galaxy.
Where did Leto get rid of social stratification? I don’t see the point you seem to think you’re making there.
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
🙄 History is full of people who weren’t selfish dicks. This is just open disingenuousness.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/51 "2022-02-08T12:04:18Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> We know because we _did_ , in the past. The Harappan civilization was as technologically advanced as its Egyptian or Mesopotamian contemporaries. Better, in some ways, like sanitation. But no evidence of social stratification.
First of all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence. Second of all, even if they did do it, we don’t know _how_ they did it, do we? So how do you expect science fiction writers to recreate a culture if historians and archeologists can’t?
Look: 99% of all advanced cultures throughout history have been stratified to one degree or another. I have to assume there’s a reason for this - that something in our nature or environment or some other factor makes stratification all-but-inevitable. To go against these titanic forces, we can’t just say “we have to do better”, because obviously, we can’t. We need an actual new model for society. I haven’t seen a convincing one yet, either in the real world, or in science fiction.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/52 "2022-02-08T12:23:48Z")
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> First of all, absence of evidence is not evidence of absence.
It is when the absence is _marked_. Palaces and armour and spearpoints and hovels and destruction layers don’t just disappear from the archaeological record.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Second of all, even if they did do it, we don’t know _how_ they did it, do we?
Doesn’t matter to my argument. And we certainly can speculate.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> So how do you expect science fiction writers to recreate a culture if historians and archeologists can’t?
There’s plenty of speculation on how the Harappans were organized.
Not that I’m asking SciFi writers to recreate that particular culture, anyway. I’m just using its existence to point out that the argument that complex societies _must_ be stratified is bunk.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> Look: 99% of all advanced cultures throughout history have been stratified to one degree or another.
I’d quibble the figure, but I’ll allow the general point.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> I have to assume there’s a reason for this
“People can be selfish dicks” seems like a good enough reason.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> something in our nature or environment or some other factor makes stratification all-but-inevitable.
Stratification isn’t inevitable, but the ability of stratified societies to impose their cultures on non-stratified ones has been greater.
And anyway, my original argument wasn’t that society need not be stratified (although it needn’t) , it was that _poverty_ need not exist. Not the same thing.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> To go against these titanic forces, we can’t just say “we have to do better”, because obviously, we can’t.
We obviously _can_ do better, since we have. We actively choose not to anymore. By, for instance, saying “we can’t do better”. Or viewing the forces of oppression as “titanic” in some way.
> [@Alessan](#):
>
> We need an actual new model for society.
Or we need the old ones back.
> [@](#):
>
> I haven’t seen a convincing one yet, either in the real world, or in science fiction.
I found the Culture perfectly believable. Not at all a hippy, dippy lovefest.
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/53 "2022-02-08T12:31:48Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> I found the Culture perfectly believable. Not at all a hippy, dippy lovefest.
Sorry - I gave up one third of the way though _Consider Phlebas_. Don’t like his writing style.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/54 "2022-02-08T12:37:34Z")
_De gustibus_. IMO, Banks was the greatest SF author since Le Guin.
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/55 "2022-02-08T12:42:12Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> > [@Smapti](#):
> >
> > Objection! Assumes facts not in evidence.
>
> 🙄 History is full of people who weren’t selfish dicks. This is just open disingenuousness.
Right. The problem isn’t that everyone is a selfish dick. The problem is that it’s inevitable that some of us will be selfish dicks. The nature of being a non-selfish dick means that the non-selfish dicks are a lot less likely to stand up to the selfish ones. As evidence just look at the threads here on the SDMB advocating for mild punishments for violent criminals. This means we end up with the selfish dicks in charge a disproportionately large amount of the time.
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### Author:  [@Smapti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Smapti)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/56 "2022-02-08T12:43:19Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> History is full of people who weren’t selfish dicks
How many of those people wind up in positions of power capable of deciding the fate of nations?
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### Author:  [@FlikTheBlue](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FlikTheBlue)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/57 "2022-02-08T12:47:13Z")
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> How many of those people wind up in positions of power capable of deciding the fate of nations?
It happens occasionally. Sometimes we get a Jimmy Carter or Mikhail Gorbachev. But it’s a lot more likely we end up with Donald Trump or Vladimir Putin.
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### Author:  [@MrDibble](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/MrDibble)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 12:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/58 "2022-02-08T12:49:01Z")
> [@FlikTheBlue](#):
>
> The nature of being a non-selfish dick means that the non-selfish dicks are a lot less likely to stand up to the selfish ones.
Unless the non-selfish-dicks can be persuaded to do it for the greater good.
> [@Smapti](#):
>
> How many of those people wind up in positions of power capable of deciding the fate of nations?
I’ve been lucky enough to meet [one](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nelson_Mandela).
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### Author:  [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 2:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/59 "2022-02-08T14:11:30Z")
> [@MrDibble](#):
>
> Unless the non-selfish-dicks can be persuaded to do it for the greater good.
THE GREATER GOOD!
[ ](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5u8vd_YNbTw)
Just be careful you don’t end up with _selfless_ dicks in charge. They’re even worse than the selfish ones.
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### Author:  [@Pardel-Lux](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pardel-Lux)
#### Post date: [February 8, 2022, 10:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theme-of-dune-novels-collective-uprising-over-decadent-wealth/958988/60 "2022-02-08T22:11:31Z")
Well, at least now I know why I had no chance to buy that book at auction. 2.9 million crypto money, I can’t beat that.
> [@So you have way too much money. You buy a comic for 2.66 Million Euro, of course](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/so-you-have-way-too-much-money-you-buy-a-comic-for-2-66-million-euro-of-course/954776):
>
> The estimate was only 25,000 - 35,000 Euro, but something got out of hand: OK, I get it. Jean Giroud is better known under the name Moebius. He was a genius. Alejandro Jodorowsky is no nobody either. And Dune is just popular right now. I was outbid by a factor of over 65… sigh. The expert that estimated the sale value must have been a bit surprised too. Now who is the billionaire that has a soft spot for Dune and Jodorowsky and Moebius? And who was the other bidder who drove him to such an e…
According to the OP’s initial article the bidder who won may not even be an asshole. Still: damn! That was not fair bidding. And I still wonder who the other was, the one who drove the bidding to those heights. Because had the other bidders all been “normal” people with sensible limits he would have bought the book for much less. Almost 3 million $ means there was a contest.
Oh, yes, and this:
> **[The 14-Hour Epic Film, Dune, That Alejandro Jodorowsky, Pink Floyd, Salvador...](https://www.openculture.com/2016/10/14-hour-epic-film-dune-that-alejandro-jodorowsky-never-made.html)**
>
> Frank Herbert, David Lynch, and Alejandro Jodorowsky surely all rank among the most imaginative creators of the second half of the twentieth century.
I love openculture! They gave me the idea to bid, but not only me, of course.
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