# Then what happens when it's all over **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042 "2000-06-11T18:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 6
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 12:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/101 "2000-06-15T12:03:34Z")
Lib said: > [@](#): > > Sorry for the interruption, my friend. But my advice stands. Well, I’m glad I wasn’t able to get to the board yesterday – that allowed you to respond, get everything sorted out, and apologize all before I saw it. 🙂 But I’m not sure what piece of advice you’re talking about. You said lots of things in the response and then responses to others, so I just wanted clarification. Oh, and Gaudere’s and tracer’s words above about instinctual love are mine as well. They beat me to it. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 15, 2000, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/102 "2000-06-15T20:33:38Z")
**Lib** : sure, call me Xeno; that’s much quicker to type. > [@](#): > > _Regarding that point, per se, it is quite often the case that a person’s legacy (what you seem to mean by spirit) is greatly magnified after his “death”, and was diminished when he “lived”._ Certainly it’s been true for many famous people (and some not so famous – Dionysius Exiguous comes to mind) that their influence on events continues and even strengthens long after their passing, although these influences might not accurately reflect their intentions, character and will. For most people, I would think their direct influence would immediately diminish upon their death, and would continue to do so for generations afterward, as those whose lives they’ve affected begin to die off and their words and deeds begin to be misrepresented and forgotten. If you will allow me to elaborate on my somewhat hasty definition, I think the strength of my “spirit” would be dependent not only on continued influence, but also on how closely the character of those influences matches the character of my influence while alive. (This would be analogous to a radio signal being interfered with by other EM radiation. The closer you are in time to the source of the signal, the higher the clarity; even if the signal is boosted, information may be lost in the distance.) > [@](#): > > _How can spirit be divided and quantified? While there might be more than one manifestation of magnetism, for example, there is only one magnetism. Everything that is magnetic has the attributes of magnetism. Whatever is not magnetism is something else._ I admit that my definition is paltry and of little comfort when compared to the concept of an immortal spirit, or to the direct manifestation of God that you described. My definition, however has the advantage of compatibility with the universe which I observe and which Science describes. **Metaphysics** (I always like to take a deep breath before plunging into metaphysics, so bear with me. -Here we go!) Your axioms:[ul][li]Love is manifested in [at least] three different ways; romantic love, brotherly love, and _selfless_ or _unreasonable_ love (agape).[_]Agape is “unnatural”, in that it cannot be accounted for by instinct.[_]Agape transcends nature (i.e. time and space).This transcendent Love is God, or the spirit of God, and lives in those who exhibit it yet is independent of them. “It is . . . a gestalt.”[/ul][/li]I’m completely comfortable with your separation of the types of love, and with your description of agape as “unreasonable” (I, too have a child). While I can accept the idea that agape can’t be accounted for by instinct, I disagree that this makes agape “unnatural.” After all, though my instincts as a male (to propogate my genetic material by impregnating every possible female) do not include child rearing, the prevailing social structure prompted me to contribute to the raising of my son, and other personal inclinations, produced through social intercourse and my own family background, prompt me to establish a close relationship with him and to love him as unselfishly as I can. Whether agape is itself transcendent of nature is a separate issue from whether it springs naturally into the human breast. “Transcendent” is a _denotative_ term that is more frequently used _connotatively_ to mean “separate from” some other thing, but actually means “having gone beyond.” I could make a good argument that agape, where exhibited, can transcend the individuals involved, but this would still be within the boundaries of time and space. However, for the purpose of further discussion, I can agree to consider things from your viewpoint when addressing your statements. Your “gestalt” statement is very interesting to me, since it echoes the most seductive aspect of _Catholicism_, that, where the spirit is manifested through agape (in this case love for Jesus), there exists a relationship between God, the Spirit, and the individual that is greater than the sum of its parts, yet separate from material reality. However, this axiom (“God is Love, Love is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit lives in the hearts of Good persons.”) hinges on the acceptance of a Supreme Being, and we’re back to a theism/atheism discussion. In order to forestall that, and to turn back in the direction of the OP (Remember Alice? This is a song about Alice.) let me delay further comment until you can say what your understanding of _awareness_ is, as associated with the immortal spirit. You said you’ve experienced awareness separate from your physical being, so I’m quite keen to see your thoughts on this. (And no, I don’t assume that you’re crazy or deluded. I may, however, disagree about the meaning of what you experienced!) **Philosophy** > [@](#): > > \*Perhaps if we share with each other our life-philosophies, we can come to better understand one another. > > I am a Libertarian Objectivist Christian. The ethic of libertarianism is non-coercion; the ethic of objectivism is self-interest; the ethic of Christianity is, of course, agape (love). The metaphysic of libertarianism is politics; of objectivism, objective reality; of Christianity, ego eimi (I am). The epistemology of libertarianism is nature; of objectivism, reason; and of Christianity, logos (the word). > > What’s yours?\* Well, I try not to label myself, as I find labels to be at least as _restrictive_ as they are _descriptive_. But to be fair, I’ll try. I’m _learning_ to be a pan-critical rationalist. Pan Critical Rationalism (PCR) is based on the premise that all positions are criticizable and none are justifiable, by which we mean that we hold all positions open to criticism, including our own most fundamental standards, goals and decisions. (In practice, however, we may be _convinced_ of certain truths, without exempting them from future revision.) If I have any strong political leanings they are anti-reactionary and anti-dogmatic; I register as a Democrat for convenience, but this has more to do with some of my social and environmental concerns than with any party affiliation. I suppose you could label me as an Independent. And I am an atheist. I hope that paragraph was sufficiently descriptive for you to see where I’m coming from. \ **Kimstu** wrote: > [@](#): > > _My guess is that **xenophon** ’s axioms will be so different from these that it will be hard to hold a discussion that doesn’t involve just disagreeing about the axioms themselves. Still, I’ll be an interested spectator, as always._ We’ll try and avoid arguing about axioms — maybe we can temporarily adopt each other’s viewpoint for the sake of argument, eh **Lib**? Whatever the case, **Kimstu** , I hope you (and everyone else) will join in whenever the spirit moves you (so to speak!) ---
**Author:** ![CollegeStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CollegeStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CollegeStudent)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 3:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/103 "2000-06-16T15:31:37Z")
There are documented accounts of people who have been on their deathbed and experienced the afterlife. E.G. Dwight Moody, the great evangelist, was lying on his deathbed and minutes before he died, heard angels and bells while no one else heard this. There is a website that tells about an atheist’s experience with a man who went to hell that transformed him. When I find it, I will post that website. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/104 "2000-06-16T15:49:27Z")
Our very own Cecil weighs in on NDE’s:[Do near-death experiences prove there is life after death?](http://www.straightdope.com/classics/a3_030.html) > [@](#): > > Blackmore points out that you don’t have to be near death to feel you are floating through a tunnel. It’s common “in epilepsy and migraine, when falling asleep, meditating, or just relaxing, with pressure on both eyeballs, and with certain drugs, such as LSD, psilocybin, and mescaline.” > > Why? Blackmore guesses it has to do with the structure of the visual cortex, the part of the brain that contains a “map” of what the eyes see. “There are lots of [cortical] cells representing the center of the visual field but very few for the edges,” she says. As the brain begins to lose control, whether due to oxygen loss, drugs, or fatigue, random neural firing apparently begins to occur, which the mind interprets as light. Since there are more cells in the center of the visual field than at the edge, you get the impression of a light at the end of a tunnel. As random firing increases, the “light” takes up a larger portion of the visual field, making you think you are floating toward the light source. > > You also don’t have to be near death to have an out-of-body experience. We know that surgical stimulation of the brain can trigger extremely realistic recreations from memory, and something similar probably occurs during an OBE or NDE. Subjects see themselves from afar because many people habitually use a bird’s-eye view when dreaming or remembering. (If you’re one of them, research suggests you may be more likely to have an OBE.) In short, Blackmore thinks that while the near-death experience is real, it can be explained on neurological grounds. The fact that NDEs have scientific explanations is not proof that there is no life after death. However, I don’t think NDEs can be considered to be evidence of an afterlife. 'Sides, I kinda have to wonder about a God that sends you to heaven/hell before you’re actually dead. I expect an omniscient being to be a little more on the ball than that. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 3:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/105 "2000-06-16T15:49:45Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > There are documented accounts of people who have been on their deathbed and experienced the afterlife. E.G. Dwight Moody, the great evangelist, was lying on his deathbed and minutes before he died, heard angels and bells while no one else heard this. There is a website that tells about an atheist’s experience with a man who went to hell that transformed him. When I find it, I will post that website. > \*\* And yet there are also cases of people on their deathbed who have _not_ experienced the afterlife. My grandfather is one. He has “died” and been brought back on at least one occassion, and reported experiencing nothing. No lights, bells, angels, voices, nothing. Is this evidence that there is nothing after death? pinqy ---
**Author:** ![CollegeStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CollegeStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CollegeStudent)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 4:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/106 "2000-06-16T16:18:55Z")
I dare you to check out the following websites WITH AN OPEN MIND and then see how you view eternity after that [http://www.av1611.org/hell.html](http://www.av1611.org/hell.html) [http://www.virtual](http://www.virtual) [hell.org](http://hell.org) This lie that there is nothing after death is the same lie that Satan has been feeding humans since the creation of the world. ---
**Author:** ![Scylla](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/a5b964/32.png) [@Scylla](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Scylla)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 5:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/107 "2000-06-16T17:05:49Z")
Well, I read that article with an “open mind,” the second link didn’t work. Here’s my conclusion: If there is any truth to it, than mankind must declare war on this vicious, evil, and small-minded God who tortures humanity at the center of the earth for his own pleasure. I suggest we start by digging down into Hell, and releasing all the poor human beings who are suffering there. These liberated souls would surely join us in the front lines of our battle to overturn this tyrant God, and his evil frontman Jesus Christ. I have a skid loader, where should we start digging? ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/108 "2000-06-16T17:37:10Z")
Yeah! Don’t you remember? There was this really ambitious project in the late 1960s/early 1970s called “Project Mohole” which sought to drill all the way through the Earth’s crust to the mantle. Funding to Project Mohole must have been cut because we were afraid we’d drill all the way into Hell! ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 6:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/109 "2000-06-16T18:00:45Z")
thanks, **Lib** , good to be back. Thanks for the self-analysis. I understand where you’re coming from. **CollegeStudent** , I read your links. With an open mind. I disagree with their interpretations of Scripture. I disagree with their theology. And I disagree with their “scare tactics.” And before you immediately assume I didn’t _really_ have an open mind, remember this–in my mind, Christianity, true Christianity, is a religion of love. As **Lib** put it, “the ethic of Christianity is _agape_.” “For God so loved the world.” “The greatest of these is love.” “Love they neighbor.” Christ taught love. He did not teach “love me or burn.” Love under duress is no love at all. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 6:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/110 "2000-06-16T18:06:06Z")
Well the link sure convinced me. I’m shopping for religion _right now._ (Anybody know where there’s a Mithraist congregation in No. GA?) Unbelievable. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 6:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/111 "2000-06-16T18:37:07Z")
CollegeStudent wrote: > [@](#): > > I dare you to check out the following websites WITH AN OPEN MIND and then see how you view eternity after that > > […] > > [http://www.virtualhell.org](http://www.virtualhell.org) By golly! Those cute little animated pictures and MIDI music sure convinced **me**! Hell **must** be real with production values like that! ---
**Author:** ![CollegeStudent](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/ce73a5/32.png) [@CollegeStudent](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CollegeStudent)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/112 "2000-06-16T18:41:18Z")
Boy those posts sure were funny. ---
**Author:** ![Threll](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/c37758/32.png) [@Threll](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Threll)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 8:10pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/113 "2000-06-16T20:10:14Z")
> [@](#): > > There are documented accounts of people who have been on their deathbed and experienced the afterlife. E.G. Dwight > Moody, the great evangelist, was lying on his deathbed and minutes before he died, heard angels and bells while no > one else heard this. There is a website that tells about an atheist’s experience with a man who went to hell that > transformed him. When I find it, I will post that website. Do you think these near death experiences prove a Christian after life, because Buddhists believe that your sole ascends a white tunnel before reincarnation. Logically then because Buddhism specifically states this, then NDE would prove Buddhism. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 10:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/114 "2000-06-16T22:36:44Z")
I was not in any way attempting to be funny, **College Student**. I am open to all forms of witnessing but threat. ---
**Author:** ![xenophon41](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/xenophon41/32/253_2.png) [@xenophon41](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/xenophon41)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 10:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/115 "2000-06-16T22:47:38Z")
> [@](#): > > _I was not in any way attempting to be funny, **College Student**. I am open to all forms of witnessing but threat._ Well, I (not being as nice a guy as **andros** ) actually _was_ trying to be funny. I will apologize for that now, and pose the following _entirely serious_ question: **College Student** , just exactly what information contained in either of those sites is supposed to so forcefully appeal to an intellectually open minded person as to change their conception of eternity? ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/116 "2000-06-16T23:00:20Z")
I can believe I am about to discuss Near-Death Experiences and Hell, but heregoes: In reference to NDE, let it be clear that these have neither been proven nor disproven to have anything to do with the afterlife. Yes it is possible that O2 deprivation could bring on hallucination. But the quality of NDE hallucinations is generally different from other hallucinations brought on by fever, illness, schizophrenia, or, say dabbling with pharmaceuticles. From what I understand NDE tend to be fairly clear and organized, and easily remembered…all things you would not expect from an o2 deprived brain. Interestingly enough, (and I almost hate to mention it) but there have been some (about 5%) documented cases of individuals having NDE that involved Hellish themes. That said, I don’t think it is time to ring the clarion and say that NDE mean there IS an afterlife. But dismissals of them tend to be rather pat and fascile. In reference to Hell: I generally find the concept of a Hell to be…uh…inconsistent (if you will) with reason. I can fit the concept of an afterlife into my understanding of reality and science, but not Hell. you’d have to provide a logical ontology for why hell would fit into the grand scheme of things. ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/117 "2000-06-16T23:40:57Z")
**avalongod** : You bring up some very good points. Here’s a dismissal that’s neither pat nor facile (in my mind): our evidence of NDE hallucinations/visions are _entirely_ self-reported and not replicable. But we do know the human mind plays funny and as-yet-unexplained tricks on us (I had a nasty bout of _deja vu_ a couple hours ago, for instance). And we _know_, from replicable experiment, that the mind is very open to suggestion. We don’t know the mechanics of NDE, but we do know of clinical situations in which the symptoms associated with NDE are replicable. Since we have evidence that the mind can produce the effects associated with NDE in non-NDE situations, and none of any sort that there is an afterlife, Occams razor demands that NDE is a physiological phenomenon and not a spiritual one. YMMV. -andros- ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 16, 2000, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/118 "2000-06-16T23:49:16Z")
Andros, you bring up good points as well. I am not defending NDE by the way, just keeping an open (and suggestible???) mind. I am not sure that I agree, however, that NDE type stuff has been replicated…I believe you are referring to the false repressed memory stuff? Keep in mind those sorts of phenomenon usually involve a third party planting the suggestions…“Do you remember your father touching you. Was he molesting you…” I am not sure that process is in effect in NDE. Generally the reinforcements are not there either (victims of molestation get sympathy, people who report NDE usually get ridicule). I think more examination of the phenomenon is required before any declarative statements can be made. In reference to Occam’s razor, OR does not DEMAND anything. It is simply a rule of thumb. Incidently OR implies that if two theories explain a phenomenon EQUALLY WELL, then the simpler ought be adopted. In this case, I don’t think either theory is explaining the phenomenon adequately well to apply OR. ---
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 12:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/119 "2000-06-17T00:38:08Z")
A couple of questions about “The Truth About Hell”: 1.) So we are supposed to take the fact that a dying man was scared out of his wits as proof that hell exists? You think maybe someone who had spent his whole life hearing and believing in a fiery place that you go when you die might be inclined to “see” such a thing in that situation? 2.) About halfway down–the article from the “Respected Finnish Newspaper”. (“Researchers Record the Screams of the Damned”) If it’s a “Respected Finnish Newspaper”, why is the scanned headline in English? And why is the font of the headline and the prose of the article so reminiscent of that of the _Weekly World News_? Methinks that Mr. Terry Watkins is not very picky about his sources, somewhat dishonest, or had his leg pulled by someone. 3.) Scare tactics like this lean on good old Pascal’s Wager. If you’ll search around, you’ll find about 857,398 threads all about why PW doesn’t hold up. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/120 "2000-06-17T00:47:03Z")
Threll wrote: > [@](#): > > Buddhists believe that your sole ascends a white tunnel before reincarnation. So _that’s_ why my shoes get thinner right before I throw them into the recycling bin! (Okay, I’ll shut up now.) [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042.md?page=5) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042.md?page=7)