# Then what happens when it's all over **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [June 11, 2000, 6:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042 "2000-06-11T18:38:41Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 7
**Author:** ![DoctorJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/doctorj/32/2904_2.png) [@DoctorJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DoctorJ)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/121 "2000-06-17T01:10:57Z")
Here’s what I learned from my open-minded tour of [Virtual Hell](http://www.virtualhell.com): –Demons either look like scorpions, Mary, or angels. –The 7-Up Spot is burning in Hell. –The official theme song of Hell is “Imagine”. However, lest you think Beelzebub has taste, they also play the “Boot Scootin’ Boogie”. –Danny Elfman should really file a lawsuit. Seriously, everyone should check out this site. It’s like the worst Haunted House you ever went through. CollegeStudent, I’m glad you’re here. I’m a semi-regular over at the LBMB (although I’ve mostly lurked lately), so I like having the fundie Christian perspective represented over here. However, if you point to web sites like the ones mentioned above to try to make your points, no one is going to take you the least bit seriously. Dr. J ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/122 "2000-06-17T01:26:07Z")
Not the 7-Up spot! I was kinda hoping that Walmart roll-back smiley face might be on his way there though. As for Hell’s theme song, I kinda though something by AC/DC would be more appropriate. Imagine? Come on. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:38am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/123 "2000-06-17T01:38:11Z")
“Imagine” is Hell’s theme song, according to [http://www.virtualhell.com](http://www.virtualhell.com) , because it encourages you not to fear for your immortal soul and believe everything the New Testament says without question. Kinda funny … CollegeStudent wants us to peruse this website with an open mind, and yet the website encourages you to keep your mind closed. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:43am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/124 "2000-06-17T01:43:25Z")
I thought Imagine said something to the effect of “Imagine there’s no religion, people living just for today.” THAT’s not what they New Testament says. How does Imagine encourage people to follow the New Testament…or did I read your post wrong? ---
**Author:** ![andros](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e480ec/32.png) [@andros](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/andros)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 1:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/125 "2000-06-17T01:51:24Z")
Yes, you did. _Imagine_ encourages peoepl NOT to believe blindly the NT. ---
**Author:** ![Sterra](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/8c91f0/32.png) [@Sterra](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sterra)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 2:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/126 "2000-06-17T02:06:44Z")
hmm i get a 404? btw You cant experience the afterlife while your still alive because youd be dead and not alive. I dont think people spontaneiously ressurect nor come back from hell. ---
**Author:** ![David\_B](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/51bf81/32.png) [@David\_B](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/David_B)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 2:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/127 "2000-06-17T02:20:31Z")
DoctorJ said: > [@](#): > > I like having the fundie Christian perspective represented over here. However, if you point to web sites like the ones mentioned above to try to make your points, no one is going to take you the least bit seriously. Hmmmm. I thought that was the very reason for having that perspective over here! ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 2:21am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/128 "2000-06-17T02:21:51Z")
Grumble grumble, that’s what I hate about English – if a sentence is too complex, it becomes ambiguous. We wouldn’t have this problem if we were all speaking Loglan. ---
**Author:** ![avalongod](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/35a633/32.png) [@avalongod](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/avalongod)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 2:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/129 "2000-06-17T02:30:03Z")
LOL…tracer, sorry I should have been following the bouncing ball anyhoo. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 3:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/130 "2000-06-17T03:06:00Z")
> [@](#): > > hmm i get a 404? I get it–Hell is no internet! :eek: That’s even scarier than 30-point red type on garish backgrounds! ---
**Author:** ![matt\_mcl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/7ab992/32.png) [@matt\_mcl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/matt_mcl)\ **Post date:** [June 17, 2000, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/131 "2000-06-17T03:36:06Z")
> [@](#): > > \*\* > Grumble grumble, that’s what I hate about English – if a sentence is too complex, it becomes ambiguous. We wouldn’t have this problem if we were all speaking Loglan. > \*\* You’re right, there would be no ambiguity because nobody would be able to construct a damn sentence. ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 3:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/132 "2000-06-18T03:24:56Z")
matt\_mcl: Da mrenu! Da de lilmort! Ptttttt! Okay, okay, so I’m faking it. I guess this is why Prolog never really caught on either. ---
**Author:** ![Evil\_Twin](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/e68b1a/32.png) [@Evil\_Twin](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Evil_Twin)\ **Post date:** [June 18, 2000, 5:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/133 "2000-06-18T05:09:37Z")
When it’s all over, I still want to look good. You know. ---
**Author:** ![Ptahlis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a8b319/32.png) [@Ptahlis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ptahlis)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 6:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/134 "2000-06-20T18:54:57Z")
I’ve been away for a bit and unable to get to a PC with enough time to read and respond. I just wanted to join in the much earlier discussion here about atheists’ fear of oblivion. Personally, I do not fear _being dead_ so much as I fear _dying_. The act of passing on, should I be aware of it when it is happening, is what scares me. Knowing that it is all over-- that I’ve seen my last sunset, drunk my last cold beer on a hot summer’s day, heard my last concert, read my last book, kissed my wife for the final time-- that is what scares me. Dying alone, that scares me too. I want someone there with me, a hand to hold, a friendly face to be my last sight if I have to be aware of my imminent demise. Someone whose name I don’t recall once quipped “I don’t mind dying; I just don’t want to be there when it happens.” I personally just don’t want to _know_ about it when it happens to me. (Cecil’s columns about the possibility of a few seconds of consciousness after being guillotined are some of the most hellishly nightmarish things I’ve ever read.) Preferably, I will be walking down the street and just explode. That way, I’ll not only be unaware of it, but will make the evening news as well 🙂 It was mentioned earlier that the elderly come to grips with, or even long for, their nearing death. If death is seen as a release from pain, or especially if it is believed to be the gateway to reuniting with departed loved ones, I can sort of understand this. But right now, all I can think of is how much there is to miss. My family is still here with me, and they still need me. There will always be more good books out there, pretty girls walking by, awesome tee shots, good meals, and great jokes. I don’t want to leave all these things behind. If there is an afterlife characterised by something other than the “toss him in the barbecue pit” type waiting for me, then I will be happily surprised. Sadly though, I have yet to be convinced by anything I have ever seen that this is the case. ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 7:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/135 "2000-06-20T19:17:14Z")
**Xeno** > [@](#): > > _If you will allow me to elaborate on my somewhat hasty definition, I think the strength of my “spirit” would be dependent not only on continued influence, but also on how closely the character of those influences matches the character of my influence while alive. (This would be analogous to a radio signal being interfered with by other EM radiation. The closer you are in time to the source of the signal, the higher the clarity; even if the signal is boosted, information may be lost in the distance.)_ Fair enough, but again it seems you are talking about a “legacy” which quite naturally might morph over time. > [@](#): > > _I admit that my definition is paltry and of little comfort when compared to the concept of an immortal spirit, or to the direct manifestation of God that you described. My definition, however has the advantage of compatibility with the universe which I observe and which Science describes._ Ah, the gods of Science (with a capital “S”). You realize, of course, that if one of the High Holy Scientists were to observe a large luminescent hypersphere moving through our space-time from ana to kata, he might think he saw a super nova. Please don’t misunderstand. There is nothing wrong with induction (á la Science) per se. But recall that to prove 1 + 1 eqauls 2, Peano was reduced to positing the induction axiom. > [@](#): > > _While I can accept the idea that agape can’t be accounted for by instinct, I disagree that this makes agape “unnatural.” After all, though my instincts as a male (to propogate my genetic material by impregnating every possible female) do not include child rearing, the prevailing social structure prompted me to contribute to the raising of my son, and other personal inclinations, produced through social intercourse and my own family background, prompt me to establish a close relationship with him and to love him as unselfishly as I can._ In my opinion, you left out the most important reason you love your son so much, namely, your good character. Goodness is the source of agape. > [@](#): > > _Your “gestalt” statement is very interesting to me, since it echoes the most seductive aspect of Catholicism, that, where the spirit is manifested through agape (in this case love for Jesus), there exists a relationship between God, the Spirit, and the individual that is greater than the sum of its parts, yet separate from material reality. However, this axiom (“God is Love, Love is the Holy Spirit, the Spirit lives in the hearts of Good persons.”) hinges on the acceptance of a Supreme Being, and we’re back to a theism/atheism discussion._ Actually, God told me that He is unconcerned with theism/atheism, and instructed me to “stop dividing the world between theists and atheists, and start dividing it rightly as I do.” He divides the world between those who love and those who don’t. “Those who love,” He told me, “they are my disciples.” That includes some of those who call themselves “atheists” (like Gaudere), and precludes some who call themselves “theists”. > [@](#): > > _In order to forestall that, and to turn back in the direction of the OP (Remember Alice? This is a song about Alice.) let me delay further comment until you can say what your understanding of awareness is, as associated with the immortal spirit. You said you’ve experienced awareness separate from your physical being, so I’m quite keen to see your thoughts on this. (And no, I don’t assume that you’re crazy or deluded. I may, however, disagree about the meaning of what you experienced!)_ Well, clearly my awareness, in the sense of synaptic activity, is quite physical. But what the Spirit does is _alter_ that awareness instantaneously. A reborn heart sees in new ways. Yes, the eyes still work the same. Yes, the brain still processes sensory input. But the _interpretation_ of what is seen is brand new. That is to say, it is objective. > [@](#): > > \*Well, I try not to label myself, as I find labels to be at least as restrictive as they are descriptive. But to be fair, I’ll try. I’m learning to be a pan-critical rationalist. Pan Critical Rationalism (PCR) is based on the premise that all positions are criticizable and none are justifiable, by which we mean that we hold all positions open to criticism, including our own most fundamental standards, goals and decisions. (In practice, however, we may be convinced of certain truths, without exempting them from future revision.) If I have any strong political leanings they are anti-reactionary and anti-dogmatic; I register as a Democrat for convenience, but this has more to do with some of my social and environmental concerns than with any party affiliation. I suppose you could label me as an Independent. And I am an atheist. > > I hope that paragraph was sufficiently descriptive for you to see where I’m coming from.\* Okay. I can dig it. I tried not to label myself, until it dawned on me that that only meant that I was a nonlabeler. But yes, that does help me see where you’re coming from. Thanks. ---
**Author:** ![pinqy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/a3d4f5/32.png) [@pinqy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/pinqy)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 7:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/136 "2000-06-20T19:27:01Z")
Damn, I meant to post this a while ago. Full story of the “Drilling for Hell” story can be found at [http://www.ship-of-fools.com/Myths/03Myth.html](http://www.ship-of-fools.com/Myths/03Myth.html) And yes, the picture was from Weekly World News. pinqy ---
**Author:** ![tracer](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tracer/32/20578_2.png) [@tracer](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/tracer)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/137 "2000-06-20T20:01:35Z")
xenophon41 wrote: > [@](#): > > I’m _learning_ to be a pan-critical rationalist. You mean like, “The non-stick coating on this 2-quart saucepan will never hold up under normal use!”? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/138 "2000-06-20T20:24:19Z")
**David** > [@](#): > > _But I’m not sure what piece of advice you’re talking about. You said lots of things in the response and then responses to others, so I just wanted clarification._ That you come out of your rut. > [@](#): > > _Oh, and Gaudere’s and tracer’s words above about instinctual love are mine as well._ Yes, of course. > [@](#): > > _They beat me to it._ Op. Cit. But we had already covered that matter (at length) in the Atheist Religion threads. That which is instinctive must, by definition, be hardwired into the genes. Agape is antithetical to every instinct of survival, and can be experienced only by surrender. You cannot be born again without first laying down your own life. Those who invoke the science gods to explain away spiritual matters, like agape and gestalt, simply _revel_ in causal fallacies. They are no different than the theists they mock, whom they say invoke their deity to explain confounding things. You will recall that our first intercourse together (yours and mine) came about when I thought you thought I was ignorant. ---
**Author:** ![Gaudere](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/e495f1/32.png) [@Gaudere](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gaudere)\ **Post date:** [June 20, 2000, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/139 "2000-06-20T20:55:32Z")
> [@](#): > > You will recall that our first intercourse together (yours and mine) What!? I though _I_ was David’s gay lover! :mad: ---
**Author:** ![Liberal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/848f3c/32.png) [@Liberal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Liberal)\ **Post date:** [June 21, 2000, 12:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042/140 "2000-06-21T00:02:04Z")
Sorry, Gaudere. It would appear that the opportune moment to tell you that we were waiting for has now come and gone. But if it’s any consolation, I am contemplating becoming a woman so I can be a lesbian. Of course, I’ll have to run that by Edlyn. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042.md?page=6) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/then-what-happens-when-its-all-over/22042.md?page=8)