# Theodicies in the Bible and other scriptures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259 "2007-09-06T16:36:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/1 "2007-09-06T16:36:56Z")
I am interested in passages in the Bible which attempt to explain the existence of evil and the suffering of the innocent. Obviously, there is Job (although it’s debatable whether there really is a theodicy offered in Job.) I am particularly interested in passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. If there are examples of this in other scriptures (Book of Mormon, the Qur’an, etc.), please feel free to chime in. Using my concordance, I think I have exhausted the Qur’an, but really, any help is welcome. ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 5:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/2 "2007-09-06T17:26:11Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] I am interested in passages in the Bible which attempt to explain the existence of evil and the suffering of the innocent. Obviously, there is Job (although it’s debatable whether there really is a theodicy offered in Job.) I am particularly interested in passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. If there are examples of this in other scriptures (Book of Mormon, the Qur’an, etc.), please feel free to chime in. Using my concordance, I think I have exhausted the Qur’an, but really, any help is welcome. [/QUOTE] There is no scriptural basis to support there are _"passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. "_ ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 6:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/3 "2007-09-06T18:59:07Z")
Hebrews 12:6: “For whom the Lord loveth he chasteneth, and scourgeth every son whom he receiveth.” (But the verse does not actually explain **why.)** ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/4 "2007-09-06T19:58:01Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] There is no scriptural basis to support there are _"passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. "_ [/QUOTE] In which scriptures? ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 8:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/5 "2007-09-06T20:16:36Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] There is no scriptural basis to support there are _"passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. "_ [/QUOTE] I dunno. I have found some passages that seem to suggest this theodicy. For example: [QUOTE=1 Peter 1:6-7] In this you rejoice, even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith–being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire–may be found to result in praise and glory and honour when Jesus Christ is revealed. [/QUOTE] I’ll have to drag my butt over to the library and see what the Interpreter’s Bible has to say about this passage. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/6 "2007-09-06T21:04:36Z")
The passage from 1 Peter you quoted is similar to this one from James: [QUOTE=James 1:2-3 (NIV)] Consider it pure joy, my brothers, whenever you face trials of many kinds, because you know that the testing of your faith develops perseverance. [/QUOTE] Not too much later, James says [QUOTE=James 1:13-14] When tempted, no one should say, “God is tempting me.” For God cannot be tempted by evil, nor does he tempt anyone; but each one is tempted when, by his own evil desire, he is dragged away and enticed. [/QUOTE] This and other passages suggest the distinction: God does not _cause_ the evil for the sake of the good that may result (e.g. testing of faith), but God does _allow_ the evil. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 9:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/7 "2007-09-06T21:15:34Z")
Here’s one of the sort you might be looking for: [QUOTE=John 9:1-7 (NIV)] As [Jesus] went along, he saw a man blind from birth. His disciples asked him, “Rabbi, who sinned, this man or his parents, that he was born blind?” “Neither this man nor his parents sinned,” said Jesus, “but this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life. As long as it is day, we must do the work of him who sent me. Night is coming, when no one can work. While I am in the world, I am the light of the world.” Having said this, he spit on the ground, made some mud with the saliva, and put it on the man’s eyes. “Go,” he told him, “wash in the Pool of Siloam” (this word means Sent). So the man went and washed, and came home seeing. [/QUOTE] It’s not clear to me whether, in saying “this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life,” Jesus is _answering_ the question of “Why was this man born blind?” or _dismissing_ the question as being the wrong thing to ask. (i.e. the appropriate response to suffering like this is not to figure out whom to blame, but to respond to it and heal it.) At any rate, this is one instance where Jesus is directly asked about the reason for (a particular instance of) suffering. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 9:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/8 "2007-09-06T21:22:48Z")
There’s the story of Joseph, where Joseph is sold as a slave to Egypt. At the end of his story, he explains to his brothers: > [@](#): > > Then Joseph said to his brothers, “Come close to me.” When they had done so, he said, "I am your brother Joseph, the one you sold into Egypt! And now, do not be distressed and do not be angry with yourselves for selling me here, because it was to save lives that God sent me ahead of you. For two years now there has been famine in the land, and for the next five years there will not be plowing and reaping. But God sent me ahead of you to preserve for you a remnant on earth and to save your lives by a great deliverance. ---
**Author:** ![Rachm\_Qoch](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/a8b319/32.png) [@Rachm\_Qoch](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Rachm_Qoch)\ **Post date:** [September 6, 2007, 9:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/9 "2007-09-06T21:56:15Z")
From the Mormon perspective, “good” would not have any meaning outside the context of the dichotomy of “good and evil.” > [@](#): > > For it must needs be, that there is an opposition in all things. If not so, my first-born in the wilderness, righteousness could not be brought to pass, neither wickedness, neither holiness nor misery, neither good nor bad. Wherefore, all things must needs be a compound in one; wherefore, if it should be one body it must needs remain as dead, having no life neither death, nor corruption nor incorruption, happiness nor misery, neither sense nor insensibility. > [2 Ne. 2:11](http://scriptures.lds.org/2_ne/2/11#11) > [@](#): > > And it must needs be that the devil should tempt the children of men, or they could not be agents unto themselves; for if they never should have bitter they could not know the sweet. > [D&C 29:39](http://scriptures.lds.org/dc/29/39#39) ---
**Author:** ![raindog](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/2bfe46/32.png) [@raindog](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/raindog)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 6:09am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/10 "2007-09-07T06:09:16Z")
[QUOTE=Revenant Threshold] In which scriptures? [/QUOTE] In the bible, either OT or NT. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 10:41am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/11 "2007-09-07T10:41:14Z")
[QUOTE=the raindog] In the bible, either OT or NT. [/QUOTE] What do you think about the passage from 1 Peter I quoted above? ---
**Author:** ![monavis](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/e0b2c6/32.png) [@monavis](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/monavis)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 11:30am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/12 "2007-09-07T11:30:48Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] I am interested in passages in the Bible which attempt to explain the existence of evil and the suffering of the innocent. Obviously, there is Job (although it’s debatable whether there really is a theodicy offered in Job.) I am particularly interested in passages where evil is described as a tool God uses to test the strength of people’s faith and their commitment to God. If there are examples of this in other scriptures (Book of Mormon, the Qur’an, etc.), please feel free to chime in. Using my concordance, I think I have exhausted the Qur’an, but really, any help is welcome. [/QUOTE] I fail to get the sense of this;if God knows all things then he knew before a person was born if he or she would pick evil, and He should have also known who would commit to Him so the testing is unnecessary! Monavis ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 12:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/13 "2007-09-07T12:00:52Z")
[QUOTE=Thudlow Boink] Here’s one of the sort you might be looking for:It’s not clear to me whether, in saying “this happened so that the work of God might be displayed in his life,” Jesus is _answering_ the question of “Why was this man born blind?” or _dismissing_ the question as being the wrong thing to ask. (i.e. the appropriate response to suffering like this is not to figure out whom to blame, but to respond to it and heal it.) At any rate, this is one instance where Jesus is directly asked about the reason for (a particular instance of) suffering. [/QUOTE] Using the, in this case more accurate KJV- 1. Jesus answered, Neither hath this man sinned, nor his parents: but that the works of God should be made manifest in him. 2. I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work. I have read another view which reads the passage this way… Jesus answered “Neither has this man sinned nor his parents. But, that the works of God should be made manifest in him, I must work the works of him that sent me, while it is day: the night cometh, when no man can work.” SO Jesus may well be saying “It’s not a matter of who sinned or why this happened. But to reveal God’s work here, I will do what I was sent to do…” Basically, there are a variety of explanations for evil in the Bible- sometimes it’s a test of faith to be endured, or an attack by the Devil or evil people to be resisted, or a natural calamity to be worked through. The one clear message of the Bible regarding evil is, regardless of why or how it happens, God is ultimately in charge & will make everything right, and can redeem the situation so as to bring greater good out of the worst evil. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 12:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/14 "2007-09-07T12:19:04Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] I fail to get the sense of this;if God knows all things then he knew before a person was born if he or she would pick evil, and He should have also known who would commit to Him so the testing is unnecessary! Monavis [/QUOTE] I agree it’s not a very good theodicy. But whenever I teach the problem of evil in my philosophy classes, it’s the first thing out of my students’ mouths. So I am seeing what scriptural basis there is for this (and other) theodicies. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 12:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/15 "2007-09-07T12:22:27Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] Basically, there are a variety of explanations for evil in the Bible- sometimes it’s a test of faith to be endured, or an attack by the Devil or evil people to be resisted, or a natural calamity to be worked through. [/QUOTE] Right; I’m just having trouble finding out any places where these explanations are offered. For example, in Job, all of Job’s friends’ theodicies are rejected, and at the end, God offers Job no reason for his suffering. ---
**Author:** ![LonesomePolecat](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/a88e57/32.png) [@LonesomePolecat](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/LonesomePolecat)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/16 "2007-09-07T13:11:52Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] I dunno. I have found some passages that seem to suggest this theodicy. For example: _In this you rejoice, even if now for a little while you have had to suffer various trials, so that the genuineness of your faith–being more precious than gold that, though perishable, is tested by fire–may be found to result in praise and glory and honour when Jesus Christ is revealed._ I’ll have to drag my butt over to the library and see what the Interpreter’s Bible has to say about this passage. [/QUOTE] Is the syntax in the original language this awkward? 😕 ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 1:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/17 "2007-09-07T13:52:53Z")
[QUOTE=monavis] I fail to get the sense of this;if God knows all things then he knew before a person was born if he or she would pick evil, and He should have also known who would commit to Him so the testing is unnecessary! Monavis [/QUOTE] God’s not the one who needs to know the answer. ---
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/18 "2007-09-07T14:13:43Z")
[QUOTE=LonesomePolecat] Is the syntax in the original language this awkward? 😕 [/QUOTE] I dunno, but I looked at several different translations and they all have the awkward phrasing. That’s why I need to drag my carcass over to the library and have a gander at the Interpreter’s Bible. I figure others have done the hard work of parsing the phrase, and I will reap the bounty of their labor. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 7, 2007, 2:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/19 "2007-09-07T14:13:54Z")
This one touches on why evil is allowed, a refining process: [QUOTE=Revelation 3:17-19 NIV] 17You say, ‘I am rich; I have acquired wealth and do not need a thing.’ But you do not realize that you are wretched, pitiful, poor, blind and naked. 18I counsel you to buy from me gold refined in the fire, so you can become rich; and white clothes to wear, so you can cover your shameful nakedness; and salve to put on your eyes, so you can see. 19Those whom I love I rebuke and discipline. So be earnest, and repent. [/QUOTE] These other Revelation passages come to mind: [QUOTE= Revelation NIV] 2:10 Do not be afraid of what you are about to suffer. I tell you, the devil will put some of you in prison to test you, and you will suffer persecution for ten days. Be faithful, even to the point of death, and I will give you the crown of life… 2:13 I know where you live—where Satan has his throne. Yet you remain true to my name. You did not renounce your faith in me, even in the days of Antipas, my faithful witness, who was put to death in your city—where Satan lives. 3:5 He who overcomes will, like them, be dressed in white. I will never blot out his name from the book of life, but will acknowledge his name before my Father and his angels 3:10Since you have kept my command to endure patiently, I will also keep you from the hour of trial that is going to come upon the whole world to test those who live on the earth. 11I am coming soon. Hold on to what you have, so that no one will take your crown. [/QUOTE] ---
**Author:** ![Zoe](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/z/a4c791/32.png) [@Zoe](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Zoe)\ **Post date:** [September 8, 2007, 4:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/20 "2007-09-08T04:02:06Z")
> [@](#): > > **Sophistry and Illusion** : But whenever I teach the problem of evil in my philosophy classes, it’s the first thing out of my students’ mouths. So I am seeing what scriptural basis there is for this (and other) theodicies. I’ve always wondered if God suspended his own nature when he ordered the murder of Isaac. Was this a test? One of the more modern philosophers dealt with this issue from the Bible and gave it a name. Do you know what I’m talking about? [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259.md?page=2)