# Theodicies in the Bible and other scriptures **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [September 6, 2007, 4:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259 "2007-09-06T16:36:56Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 4
**Author:** ![Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b3f665/32.png) [@Sophistry\_and\_Illusion](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sophistry_and_Illusion)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 4:26pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/61 "2007-09-10T16:26:50Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] You probably wished you never had the chance to taste trans-fat, HFCS or any other foods that are unhealthy, but someone introduced them into our world. But now that they are in the world I’d say that you would like to try fried chicken in transfat with a HFCS drink just to experience it once. [/QUOTE] Bad analogy. I don’t choose voluntarily to experience natural evil. Moral evil might be a different story, but very few people choose to contract smallpox or polio, or be swept away by a tsunami. And most people are forced to endure natural evil more than once, so it’s not as though they are just getting a taste. ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 4:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/62 "2007-09-10T16:30:44Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] I’m not saying there aren’t any theodies worth discussing. I am mostly arguing that \*\*BrainGlutton \*\* is underestimating the difficulty of solving the problem of evil. [/QUOTE] And _I_ was mostly arguing that your “if … then” doesn’t hold up logically, because there’s a way for the antecedent to be true while the consequent is false. 🙂 I agree that “God created (or allows) natural evils so that we can have the satisfaction of overcoming them” leaves a lot to be desired as The Answer to the problem of evil. But if there is an Answer, it’s quite possible that a less oversimplified version of that may well factor into the Answer. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 4:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/63 "2007-09-10T16:33:17Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] Edgar Casey was heckled by a real estate broker each time they met. One day Casey offered a $50 bet to the man, a lot of money in those days, the broker was to sit under his favorite tree for one hour every day for two months. During that time he could not read, eat, sleep, or otherwise amuse himself, his job was to talk to the tree asking questions or whatever came to his mind and listen for the tree to answer. The bet was he would hear the tree talk back to him in this length of time or he would win the bet. The broker paid Casey in a little over a month and never heckled the famous psychic again. [/QUOTE] This is going into the occult. Jesus did not say in that verse, or any other to talk to a tree. Jesus only talked to a tree once in scriptures and that was to curse it and it died the next day. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 4:38pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/64 "2007-09-10T16:38:20Z")
[QUOTE=Sophistry and Illusion] Bad analogy. I don’t choose voluntarily to experience natural evil. Moral evil might be a different story, but very few people choose to contract smallpox or polio, or be swept away by a tsunami. And most people are forced to endure natural evil more than once, so it’s not as though they are just getting a taste [/QUOTE] Looking at the life of Jesus, as He did no evil, and He did suffer from it provides a interesting example. But for us, we have all done some evil, once we commit any evil (or sin) we open ourselves up righteously to receive any evil that comes to us. ---
**Author:** ![lekatt](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/lekatt/32/7269_2.png) [@lekatt](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/lekatt)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 6:46pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/65 "2007-09-10T18:46:07Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] This is going into the occult. Jesus did not say in that verse, or any other to talk to a tree. Jesus only talked to a tree once in scriptures and that was to curse it and it died the next day. [/QUOTE] I didn’t say Jesus said to talk to a tree, I said Casey said talk to a tree. It was to illustrate a point. OH,well. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/66 "2007-09-10T20:13:02Z")
Here is scriptural that would indicate that man’s message of Jesus is enough, we don’t need God to set up a publishing house: [QUOTE=John 17:20 NIV] "My **(Jesus’)** prayer is not for them **(His Disciples)** alone. I pray also for those who will believe in me through their message, [/QUOTE] bold mine for clarity ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/67 "2007-09-10T20:15:38Z")
[QUOTE=lekatt] I didn’t say Jesus said to talk to a tree, I said Casey said talk to a tree. It was to illustrate a point. OH,well. [/QUOTE] I think your point was that the kingdom of God is within us, but in this example all you show that we have a way to contact the supernatural, basically through deep meditative practices. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/68 "2007-09-10T20:33:05Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Looking at the life of Jesus, as He did no evil, and He did suffer from it provides a interesting example. But for us, we have all done some evil, once we commit any evil (or sin) we open ourselves up righteously to receive any evil that comes to us. [/QUOTE] Here’s some poison gas. All you need to do to prevent being killed is to not breath for the next hour. Oh, God made you so that you have to breath? Sucks to be you. If the only person who can go through life without doing evil is an incarnation of god, then I don’t think we can be blamed for doing some evil, no matter how small. Also, how come the sins of Adam and Eve cause deer to get ripped apart by wolves? And I thought there were no carnivores until after the Flood anyway, which makes blaming Adam and Eve for carnivores make even less sense. BTW, if God is punishing Satan, and tormenting sinners makes Satan happy, can’t God punish him some more by not sending any down? ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 8:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/69 "2007-09-10T20:55:30Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] If the only person who can go through life without doing evil is an incarnation of god, then I don’t think we can be blamed for doing some evil, no matter how small. [/QUOTE] But why would one be free of the consequences of the evil they did? Consequences that hurt others, some that you can never repay? > [@](#): > > Also, how come the sins of Adam and Eve cause deer to get ripped apart by wolves? The wolves are hungry and can catch the deer. > [@](#): > > And I thought there were no carnivores until after the Flood anyway, which makes blaming Adam and Eve for carnivores make even less sense. I don’t believe this to be true, there were no carnivores until after the fall IIRC. Why is a carnivore evil? > [@](#): > > BTW, if God is punishing Satan, and tormenting sinners makes Satan happy, can’t God punish him some more by not sending any down? Satan’s punishment does not start till the end time where he is bound for about 1000 years, then released, then thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is true that Satan was judged condemned at the time of Jesus, but his sentence doesn’t start till later. > [@](#): > > 1. John 16:11 NIV > and in regard to judgment, because the prince of this world now stands condemned. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 9:24pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/70 "2007-09-10T21:24:50Z")
Kipling’s poem [“Natural Theology”](http://whitewolf.newcastle.edu.au/words/authors/K/KiplingRudyard/verse/p1/theology.html) has some relevance here. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 9:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/71 "2007-09-10T21:31:00Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] But why would one be free of the consequences of the evil they did? Consequences that hurt others, some that you can never repay? [/quote] Even we sinful mortals don’t punish a mentally ill person for what he does, but try to cure him. If God made us evil, he has even less justification for punishing us for something we can’t help. The punishment is also not proportional to the crime. A child may be inherently sinful, but has she done enough to merit her being drowned in a tsunami? Dante wrote about proportional punishments - do you believe in circles of hell, or in purgatory? > [@](#): > > The wolves are hungry and can catch the deer. > I don’t believe this to be true, there were no carnivores until after the fall IIRC. Why is a carnivore evil? I’ll have to look it up, but I think creationists use this to explain how carnivores on the ark avoided eating their shipmates. Nonetheless, couldn’t God make every creation an herbivore? Or, couldn’t he make death painless? The wolf and the deer are actually mild cases. There are wasps that make Alien look like Barney. Nature is indeed red in tooth and claw. It makes perfect sense to those of us who accept evolution, but as we see in this thread it is a big problem for theists - or rather theists who believe in a merciful god. No problem at all if you believe in a monster god. > [@](#): > > Satan’s punishment does not start till the end time where he is bound for about 1000 years, then released, then thrown into the Lake of Fire. It is true that Satan was judged condemned at the time of Jesus, but his sentence doesn’t start till later. So, God lets him run around enticing people and tormenting sinners. No parole violations in this circuit, are there? Are you absolutely certain the right side won in the war in Heaven? A lot of these questions go away if the Evil One was victorious. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 10:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/72 "2007-09-10T22:07:03Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Even we sinful mortals don’t punish a mentally ill person for what he does, but try to cure him. [/QUOTE] Many Christians would say if the person is not capable of understanding sin (such as a baby) they will not be cast into Hell. > [@](#): > > If God made us evil, he has even less justification for punishing us for something we can’t help. God made us capable of doing good and evil, and it’s true we were not designed to be our own God, but to have a God (the God), who we would pattern after. A&E’s decision was to try to do it on their own, to become ‘as God’. So it was though that decision that we are held accountable for the evil we do. > [@](#): > > I’ll have to look it up, but I think creationists use this to explain how carnivores on the ark avoided eating their shipmates. There were not 2 of each animal, but 2 of each clean animal and 7 of each unclean animal. It was commonly assumed that 5 of the 7 of each unclean animal could be used as food. > [@](#): > > Nonetheless, couldn’t God make every creation an herbivore? Or, couldn’t he make death painless? The wolf and the deer are actually mild cases. The wages of sin is death. When it was possible to sin, death had to enter the world, which for people is not the end, but seperation of body and spirit. God doesn’t place human rights onto animals, but placed them under man. > [@](#): > > So, God lets him run around enticing people and tormenting sinners. We are all sinners, God lets him deceive people here, a few do get torment here as well For non-believers in God through Jesus, the person will end up in Hell, to make his own way in a place ruled by Satan. Technically that person can stake out a plot of Hell as his own and rule as a ‘minor god’, practically that can’t happen as man can’t defend against (fallen) angels (outside of the authority that Jesus gave to us in His name). ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 10:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/73 "2007-09-10T22:18:57Z")
[QUOTE=Voyager] Dante wrote about proportional punishments - do you believe in circles of hell, or in purgatory? [/QUOTE] No to both, but beleive in different punishments, as it seems like being cast into ‘The Outer Darkness’ may be worse then ‘conventional’ Hell. ---
**Author:** ![Captain\_Amazing](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/6de8d8/32.png) [@Captain\_Amazing](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Captain_Amazing)\ **Post date:** [September 10, 2007, 11:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/74 "2007-09-10T23:19:26Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] There were not 2 of each animal, but 2 of each clean animal and 7 of each unclean animal. It was commonly assumed that 5 of the 7 of each unclean animal could be used as food. [/QUOTE] Other way around, it’s two of every unclean animal, 7 of every clean animal and 7 of each bird. The story also provides for food for Noah and the animals: “You are to take every kind of food that is to be eaten and store it away as food for you and for them”. So, there’s nothing in the story of Noah to suggest that any of the inhabitants of the Ark got eaten at the time. ---
**Author:** ![BrainGlutton](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/82dd89/32.png) [@BrainGlutton](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BrainGlutton)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 1:02am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/75 "2007-09-11T01:02:01Z")
[QUOTE=Captain Amazing] So, there’s nothing in the story of Noah to suggest that any of the inhabitants of the Ark got eaten at the time. [/QUOTE] [gary larson] “So much for the unicorns! From now on, all carnivores will be confined to ‘C’ deck!” [/gl] ---
**Author:** ![Blake](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/a9a28c/32.png) [@Blake](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Blake)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 2:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/76 "2007-09-11T02:36:22Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] Many Christians would say if the person is not capable of understanding sin (such as a baby) they will not be cast into Hell. [/QUOTE] That would seem hard to reconcile with the Bible, which specifically states that children are killed brutally by Angels because they (or their society) are sinners. > [@](#): > > Behold, the day of the LORD cometh, cruel both with wrath and fierce anger, to lay the land desolate: and he shall **destroy the sinners** thereof out of it. …Their **children also shall be dashed to pieces** before their eyes; their houses shall be spoiled, and their wives ravished. > [@](#): > > Samaria shall become desolate; for she **hath rebelled against her God** : they shall fall by the sword: their **infants shall be dashed in pieces** , and their women with child shall be ripped up. Issuing orders to his avenging angel God says: > [@](#): > > Slay utterly old and young, both maids, and **little children** , and women: but come not near any man upon whom is the mark; and begin at my sanctuary. … The **iniquity of the house of Israel and Judah** is exceeding great, and the land is full of blood, and the city full of perverseness: for they say, The LORD hath forsaken the earth, and the LORD seeth not. Three clear cases where the lord order chidlren to be cruelly slaughtered because of the sins of their society/parents. I won’t even bother to list all the others. The point is that the idea that children to young to have sinned will be sppared form tomernt by God doesn’'t gel with God’s actions in the bible, where children are slaughtered precisely and explicietly because thier societies happened to have sinned, not because of thier own sin. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 4:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/77 "2007-09-11T04:11:12Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] God made us capable of doing good and evil, and it’s true we were not designed to be our own God, but to have a God (the God), who we would pattern after. A&E’s decision was to try to do it on their own, to become ‘as God’. So it was though that decision that we are held accountable for the evil we do. [/QUOTE] The decision still isn’t ours, though. Why should pretty much the entire moral system of the world revolve around the decision of two people? I’m assuming _you_ wouldn’t choose to become “as God”; why should you be forced to abide by the consequences of that choice, when you didn’t and wouldn’t make it? It seems silly to apply the choice of the few to the many, especially when the choice of salvation is strictly an individual one. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 10:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/78 "2007-09-11T10:56:22Z")
**Blake** thoughs verses, at a quick - I’m running out the door right now - look seem to indicate the physical death of them, seperation of soul and body, not eternal torment of the soul in Hell. ---
**Author:** ![FriarTed](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/friarted/32/1052_2.png) [@FriarTed](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/FriarTed)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 11:10am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/79 "2007-09-11T11:10:34Z")
[QUOTE=kanicbird] **Blake** thoughs verses, at a quick - I’m running out the door right now - look seem to indicate the physical death of them, seperation of soul and body, not eternal torment of the soul in Hell. [/QUOTE] The idea of eternal torment in Hell is conspicuously absent from the Old Testament. There are only three strong passages in the New Testament that seem to support it, and they can be debated. On the other hand, I think a strong Biblical case can be made for future reconciliation, with the eventual snuffing out of any souls who will not be reconciled. If more historic Christian bodies had given greater consideration to this, they wouldn’t have faced as much competition from Joseph Smith, Charles Taze Russell & Judge Rutherford, Mary Baker Eddy, and Herbert W. Armstrong. In the early days of Pentecostalism, Charles Fox Parham promoted reconciliation/annihilation, but the vast bulk of Pentecostal/Charismatic churches moved away from it. ---
**Author:** ![kanicbird](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/k/5f8ce5/32.png) [@kanicbird](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/kanicbird)\ **Post date:** [September 11, 2007, 12:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259/80 "2007-09-11T12:20:56Z")
[QUOTE=FriarTed] There are only three strong passages in the New Testament that seem to support it, and they can be debated [/QUOTE] Again not much time here, but I can think more then 3, Mark 9 44-48. Matthew 3:12, Matthew 25:41, Jude 1:7, 3 references to the outer darkness, And the Revelation verses. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259.md?page=3) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theodicies-in-the-bible-and-other-scriptures/418259.md?page=5)