# Theories about Beethoven possibly being.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121 "2006-08-10T04:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/1 "2006-08-10T04:42:26Z")
a high funtioning savant? Same with Mozart and other great composers? Has there ever been any speculation or even study on this? Expecially since Mozart was known to write completely new symphonies out of thin air and onto paper without hearing one note in as less as two days. Something tells me he was a little…well…different. ---
**Author:** ![TJdude825](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/dec6dc/32.png) [@TJdude825](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TJdude825)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 5:56am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/2 "2006-08-10T05:56:25Z")
The few facts I do know about the major composers, I tend to forget which fact goes to which one. But I believe Mozart had perfect pitch, and I wouldn’t be surprised if several of the other very famous composers did too. That alone is unusual. ---
**Author:** ![filmyak](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/94ad74/32.png) [@filmyak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/filmyak)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 7:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/3 "2006-08-10T07:39:29Z")
I think Beethoven used [this](http://www.discount.perfectpitch.com/) technique, myself. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 7:51am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/4 "2006-08-10T07:51:13Z")
Beethoven is believed to have perfect pitch, since it’s thought that’s the only way he could have composed after he went deaf (what caused it, anyway?). IIRC, the pieces of Einstein’s brain that have been studied showed greater density of neurons, etc. in the areas of the brain associated with mathematics. Of course, the question is: Was Einstein so good at math because his brain was wired up that way, or did being so good at math wire his brain up that way? Genetics almost certainly play a part in musical ability, as well as environment (Mozart’s father was a composer, so there’s both the genetic component as well as the environmental in his case.) ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 7:59am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/5 "2006-08-10T07:59:08Z")
I saw a fascinating (yet rather speculative) documentary about Mozart a while back, suggesting that he may have suffered from some compulsive disorder such as Tourette’s Syndrome - the presenter of the programme, James McConnel, suffers from Tourettes himself and I must say his argument was pretty compelling - although, as I say, I recognise the speculative nature of it, and the experts he interviewed and presented his case to were uniformly unconvinced. > **[tourettes-disorder.com](http://www1.tourettes-disorder.com?backfill=0&domainname=0&searchbox=0&subid4=655b379537b9ef044b260b5a)** > > Tourette Symptoms,Tourettes Syndrome,Tourettes Disorder,Child Anxiety Symptoms,Tourettes disorder,Tourette symptoms,Childhood Depression Symptoms,Tourettes syndrome,Tourette Syndrome ADHD ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 11:11am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/6 "2006-08-10T11:11:42Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Was Einstein so good at math because his brain was wired up that way, or did being so good at math wire his brain up that way? Not to hijack, but was Einstein \*really \* a math wizard? Yes, he was good at math, but I’m pretty sure there were others who were much better. I thought his gift was in formulating and understanding abstract concepts, not mathematics. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 11:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/7 "2006-08-10T11:48:12Z")
> [@](#): > > Beethoven is believed to have perfect pitch, since it’s thought that’s the only way he could have composed after he went deaf (what caused it, anyway?). I’cve read suggestioons that it was due to syphilis, but a quick internet search shows as many sites vehemently against this idea as for it. (I’m reminded of the play _Amadeus_, in which the Venticelli comment, on the theory that Salieri may have poisoned Mozart – “Nobody believes that” “Yes, everyone knows what Mozart died of.” “Syphilis” “…Like Everyone else.”) pro-syphilis: [http://www.classicalarchives.com/bios/beethoven\_bio.html](http://www.classicalarchives.com/bios/beethoven_bio.html) anti-syphilis: > **[Ludwig van Beethoven](https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ludwig_van_Beethoven)** > > Ludwig van Beethoven\[n 1\] (baptised 17 December 1770 – 26 March 1827) was a German composer and pianist. Beethoven remains one of the most admired composers in the history of Western music; his works rank among the most performed of the classical music repertoire and span the transition from the Classical period to the Romantic era in classical music. His career has conventionally been divided into early, middle, and late periods. His early period, during which he forged his craft, is typical... ---
**Author:** ![aldiboronti](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9fc348/32.png) [@aldiboronti](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aldiboronti)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 11:53am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/8 "2006-08-10T11:53:23Z")
> [@Crafter\_Man](#): > > Not to hijack, but was Einstein \*really \* a math wizard? Yes, he was good at math, but I’m pretty sure there were others who were much better. I thought his gift was in formulating and understanding abstract concepts, not mathematics. Einstein was most definitely not a math wizard. He often admitted that he was no great shakes in that area. His genius lay in theory. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/9 "2006-08-10T12:06:10Z")
_This_ site suggests (but doesn’t insist) that it may have been _lead poisoning_: [http://www.hriptc.org/Beethoven.html](http://www.hriptc.org/Beethoven.html) > [@](#): > > At age 31, Beethoven reported that he was losing his hearing. By age 42 he was nearly completely deaf. There have been a few isolated cases of deafness associated with lead poisoning, but they have been quite rare. The cause of Beethoven’s deafness is still a mystery, and a continuing focus of our ongoing research. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/10 "2006-08-10T12:06:55Z")
All these theories are nothing more than speculation, and often based on preposterous assumptions such as… > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Beethoven is believed to have perfect pitch, since **it’s thought that’s the only way he could have composed after he went deaf** I don’t mean to shoot the messenger, **Tuckerfan** , but the idea that someone cannot envisage sound just because they’ve lost the ability to hear it is really patronising towards deaf people. And regarding > [@diggleblop](#): > > Expecially since Mozart was known to write completely new symphonies out of thin air and onto paper without hearing one note in as less as two days. Yes, it’s a highly-unusual skill, but I know at least one composer who (sometimes) writes pieces in such a way, at such a rate. No, they don’t sound like Mozart, but that’s not the point! ---
**Author:** ![Crafter\_Man](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crafter_man/32/458_2.png) [@Crafter\_Man](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Crafter_Man)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/11 "2006-08-10T12:30:32Z")
Must have been all that thrash metal he listened to as a kid. ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 5:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/12 "2006-08-10T17:40:33Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > All these theories are nothing more than speculation, and often based on preposterous assumptions such as… > > I don’t mean to shoot the messenger, **Tuckerfan** , but the idea that someone cannot envisage sound just because they’ve lost the ability to hear it is really patronising towards deaf people. > > And regarding > Yes, it’s a highly-unusual skill, but I know at least one composer who (sometimes) writes pieces in such a way, at such a rate. No, they don’t sound like Mozart, but that’s not the point! Not doubting at all. Who is that composer? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 5:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/13 "2006-08-10T17:49:02Z")
‘Know’ as a friends, not as household names! ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/14 "2006-08-10T17:53:50Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I don’t mean to shoot the messenger, **Tuckerfan** , but the idea that someone cannot envisage sound just because they’ve lost the ability to hear it is really patronising towards deaf people. “Patronising?” Really? It may be based on a misunderstanding, but, “patronising?” I don’t see in any way how the view **Tuckerfan** mentioned shows an attitude of superiority towards deaf people. Now… if a deaf person were afraid he is inferior because of his deafness, he might take any mention of a loss of ability due to his deafness as “patronising.” But he would be wrong to fear inferiority, and he would be wrong to use the term “patronising.” -FrL- ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 5:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/15 "2006-08-10T17:58:56Z")
> [@Frylock](#): > > I don’t see in any way how the view **Tuckerfan** mentioned shows an attitude of superiority towards deaf people. I read it as in implication of musical inferiority among deaf people, which yes, if a genuine opinion, I would consider patronising. ---
**Author:** ![wolf\_meister](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/wolf_meister/32/15202_2.png) [@wolf\_meister](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/wolf_meister)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/16 "2006-08-10T18:04:31Z")
By high functioning savant do you mean [Asperger’s Syndrome](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/11/naut11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/11/ixworld.html)? That website mentions Beethoven (among others). ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/17 "2006-08-10T18:07:21Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I don’t mean to shoot the messenger, **Tuckerfan** , but the idea that someone cannot envisage sound just because they’ve lost the ability to hear it is really patronising towards deaf people. You might have a point you are able to equate envisioning sound with composing the Ninth. The charge of patronising is unfounded. > [@](#): > > I read it as in implication of musical inferiority among deaf people, which yes, if a genuine opinion, I would consider patronising. Is it your contention that deaf people, on average, are not musically inferior to people who can hear? Isn’t the perception of sound sort of crucial to music? ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/18 "2006-08-10T18:16:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > ‘Know’ as a friends, not as household names! Gotcha, I’d still like to hear some stuff. I’m a classical freak and am actually listening to Beethoven as I type. 🙂 ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/19 "2006-08-10T18:18:03Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > By high functioning savant do you mean [Asperger’s Syndrome](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/11/naut11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/11/ixworld.html)? > That website mentions Beethoven (among others). Sweet, thanks for the link ! Interesting stuff. I had my suspicions. ---
**Author:** ![Frylock](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/f/ce7236/32.png) [@Frylock](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Frylock)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/20 "2006-08-10T18:30:35Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I read it as in implication of musical inferiority among deaf people, which yes, if a genuine opinion, I would consider patronising. If I think someone can’t walk because they are missing both legs, I am not implying that they are inferior to me, and I am not being patronizing. If I think someone can’t compose music because they are, say, missing both auditory nerves, I am not implying that they are inferior to me and I am not being patronizing. My inference that they can’t compose music is false, but not patronizing–just as my previous inference that the person couldn’t walk was true, but not patronizing. The equation of inability with inferiority does indeed invite patronising attitudes. But the equation is a false one. -FrL- [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121.md?page=2)