# Theories about Beethoven possibly being.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121 "2006-08-10T04:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/21 "2006-08-10T18:48:42Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I don’t mean to shoot the messenger, **Tuckerfan** , but the idea that someone cannot envisage sound just because they’ve lost the ability to hear it is really patronising towards deaf people. Hey, it ain’t my theory, but it does make _some_ sense. Memories fade after time, and musical composition is a sophisticated activity, one where being merely close to recalling what a note sounds like could cause problems. That doesn’t mean that he had to have perfect pitch. If his training as a composer was exceptionally good (highly likely in any case), and he spent a great deal of his time before he went deaf, composing and listening to music (again, highly likely), then it’s entirely possible he could have managed without perfect pitch. I don’t know very much about his life, so I can’t say for certain how likely it may have been. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 7:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/22 "2006-08-10T19:03:40Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Is it your contention that deaf people, on average, are not musically inferior to people who can hear? Isn’t the perception of sound sort of crucial to music? Yes, and yes. If we’re talking about Beethoven, then we’re not talking about people who are profoundly deaf from birth (and in any case, I’ll still not accept that they are necessarily ‘musically inferior’). Beethoven isn’t the only musician to have coped with complete hearing loss - Evelyn Glennie is well-known, and there’s a violist in the London Symphony Orchestra who is completely deaf. ---
**Author:** ![rivulus](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/839c29/32.png) [@rivulus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rivulus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/23 "2006-08-10T19:21:42Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > Expecially since Mozart was known to write completely new symphonies out of thin air and onto paper without hearing one note in as less as two days. [This](http://www.aproposmozart.com/Konrad%20-%20Moz's%20Composing%20rev%20Index.pdf) brief synopsis of a longer study (warning: PDF) casts doubt on this commonly held belief about Mozart. In any case, the large number of extant sketches certainly suggest that Mozart was not composing in any manner like a savant, but working out ideas in a methodical, rational way. ---
**Author:** ![Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/spectre_of_pithecanthropus/32/12343_2.png) [@Spectre\_of\_Pithecanthropus](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Spectre_of_Pithecanthropus)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/24 "2006-08-10T20:01:37Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Einstein was most definitely not a math wizard. He often admitted that he was no great shakes in that area. His genius lay in theory. If by that you mean he couldn’t instantly answer a question like “What is 3089776 divided by 408.008?”, then he wasn’t a math wizard, but then very few mathematicians are going by what I’ve read. But wouldn’t Einstein or any other professional mathematician have been a quick study standard topics like calculus and trig? ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/25 "2006-08-10T20:02:20Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > there’s a violist in the London Symphony Orchestra who is completely deaf. Who is it? And what techniques does he (or she) use to play, especially in unison with the rest of the symphony? For example, I take it this musician has to get someone else to tune his violin. And keeping time might not be a problem if you watch the conductor and your fellow musicians closely, but how does he make sure he’s not playing too loudly or too softly? Musical notation isn’t too specific when it comes to volume (ppp, pp, p, mp, mf, f, ff, fff), and different conductors may have different interpretations of what constitutes “piano” or “forte” for any given passage of any given piece of music. ---
**Author:** ![psychonaut](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/psychonaut/32/4655_2.png) [@psychonaut](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/psychonaut)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/26 "2006-08-10T20:04:54Z")
> [@aldiboronti](#): > > Einstein was most definitely not a math wizard. He often admitted that he was no great shakes in that area. His genius lay in theory. Math _is_ theory. Professional mathematicians don’t just sit around all day calculating. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/27 "2006-08-10T20:15:05Z")
> [@psychonaut](#): > > Who is it? Liz Varlow (according to Google) > [@](#): > > And what techniques does he (or she) use to play, especially in unison with the rest of the symphony? No idea…but… > [@](#): > > For example, I take it this musician has to get someone else to tune his violin. Playing either the violin or the viola, you’re in direct contact with the resonating instrument, and so feel vibrations as well as hear them. > [@](#): > > And keeping time might not be a problem if you watch the conductor and your fellow musicians closely, but how does he make sure he’s not playing too loudly or too softly? Even for regular string players, much of the ensemble work is achieved through sight, and, paradixcally, a group of players who rely on aural judgement alone create a cacophony. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/28 "2006-08-10T20:41:57Z")
Rather than an ability to literally or vicariously hear the notes, couldn’t an advanced understanding of music theory suffice, as well? Just sitting here at my computer, I don’t need to hear the notes to know that C, E, and G, all natural, will sound nice together. Now, that’s a very simple example, but then, I’m no Beethoven. Could Beethoven not have composed just by understanding the relationships between notes, without a sense of how those relationsips are actually expressed in sound? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/29 "2006-08-10T20:47:30Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > Could Beethoven not have composed just by understanding the relationships between notes, without a sense of how those relationsips are actually expressed in sound? He could have written a series of harmonies which obeyed all the right rules and systems. But that’s not all it takes to write good music - that involves a whole different, far less tangible, level of creativity. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/30 "2006-08-10T20:48:45Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Yes, and yes. If we’re talking about Beethoven, then we’re not talking about people who are profoundly deaf from birth (and in any case, I’ll still not accept that they are necessarily ‘musically inferior’). Beethoven isn’t the only musician to have coped with complete hearing loss - Evelyn Glennie is well-known, and there’s a violist in the London Symphony Orchestra who is completely deaf. Name ten more. The key phrase is _on average._ Out of all the composers inn the world, what percentage are deaf? Out of all the viola players in the world, what percentage are deaf? How does this compare to the percentage of deaf people in the general population? As to your reference to Beethoven not being dead from birth, it was you who accused Tuckerfan of being patronizing when his comment was _about_ Beethoven. Take it or leave it. Just don’t do both. ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 8:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/31 "2006-08-10T20:49:28Z")
> [@Spectre of Pithecanthropus](#): > > If by that you mean he couldn’t instantly answer a question like “What is 3089776 divided by 408.008?”, then he wasn’t a math wizard, but then very few mathematicians are going by what I’ve read. But wouldn’t Einstein or any other professional mathematician have been a quick study standard topics like calculus and trig? “The Red Shift” by Tim Ferris noted that Einstein got help on some of the math used for relativity. (I have it as a book on cassette, so it won’t be easy to look up.) I’m sure his math was way better than average, but not nearly as good as his physics. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 9:03pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/32 "2006-08-10T21:03:35Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Name ten more. The key phrase is _on average._ I took the key phrase to be ‘musically inferior’, actually. Because I don’t know what this means, or at least how on earth you could quantify it. > [@](#): > > Out of all the composers inn the world, what percentage are deaf? And how many composers are female? > [@](#): > > As to your reference to Beethoven not being dead from birth, it was you who accused Tuckerfan of being patronizing when his comment was _about_ Beethoven. Take it or leave it. Just don’t do both. Errrrr…firstly, I thought I’d successfully avoided accusing **Tuckerfan** directly. Secondly, the reason why I was excluding people deaf from birth was to make it clear that I was talking about people who’ve suffered hearing loss, making for a more meaningful comparison of abilities. ---
**Author:** ![panache45](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/panache45/32/64_2.png) [@panache45](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/panache45)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 9:07pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/33 "2006-08-10T21:07:40Z")
> [@wolf\_meister](#): > > By high functioning savant do you mean [Asperger’s Syndrome](http://www.telegraph.co.uk/news/main.jhtml?xml=/news/2005/06/11/naut11.xml&sSheet=/news/2005/06/11/ixworld.html)? > That website mentions Beethoven (among others). My guess is that this is a much greater possibility than that of savant. He was involved with many other interests (e.g. politics), in addition to his musical genius, and it’s debatable whether his antisocial attitudes were a result of his hearing problems. And I don’t understand the argument that he must have had perfect pitch, in order to compose after he was deaf. He already had several decades of experience, and he knew how each key sounded, as well as the ranges and temperaments of each instrument or voice. Perfect pitch has nothing to do with this. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 10:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/34 "2006-08-10T22:09:51Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I took the key phrase to be ‘musically inferior’, actually. Because I don’t know what this means, or at least how on earth you could quantify it. Well, it’s your phrase. At least, you are the first one to use it in this thread. I suppose it is up to you to quantify it. > [@](#): > > And how many composers are female? I don’t know. I suspect, however, that the subset \ is analogous to the subset \ of the set \. I’ll ask again. Isn’t the ability to hear an important prerequisite for understanding, appreciating, and performing music? I am sure there are counter-examples, but are they not the tail of the bell curve? Yes, people can get information via, vibrations, motion, etc., but do you assert that that information is as complete and accurate as a hearing person might get? I mean no offense to deaf people, but it seems odd to me that you would not consider deafness to be a hindrance to musical ability. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 10, 2006, 11:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/35 "2006-08-10T23:57:48Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Well, it’s your phrase. At least, you are the first one to use it in this thread. I suppose it is up to you to quantify it. Oh, for goodness sake. I was bloody well explicit in saying that I wasn’t accusing **Tuckerfan** of being patronising, and that my criticism was of the third-hand suggestions being relayed. Can we drop it, unless it’s still relevant in some way? > [@](#): > > I don’t know. I suspect, however, that the subset \ is analogous to the subset \ of the set \. Nope, you missed the point here, however. Why are female composers, throughout history, the exception? Either because women can’t write music (try defending that one), or situations and circumstances prevent them from doing so, and also from developing the necessary skills. “Women in general can’t write music, and therefore there aren’t many female composers” is a preposterous statement. I hope we can agree on this, despite also agreeing that female composers are in a minority. Therefore, the lack of deaf people making a living from music is not proof that deaf people are not capable of doing so. > [@](#): > > I’ll ask again. Isn’t the ability to hear an important prerequisite for understanding, appreciating, and performing music? From the evidence, no, or rather it’s not essential. > [@](#): > > I am sure there are counter-examples, but are they not the tail of the bell curve? How do you have a bell curve if you can’t quantify something?! > [@](#): > > Yes, people can get information via, vibrations, motion, etc., but do you assert that that information is as complete and accurate as a hearing person might get? I cannot answer this. The only people who can are people who’ve suffered hearing loss. > [@](#): > > I mean no offense to deaf people, but it seems odd to me that you would not consider deafness to be a hindrance to musical ability. I’m not surprised that is sees odd, but I assure you, it’s not an insurmountable obstacle. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 12:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/36 "2006-08-11T00:40:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > > [@Contrapuntal](#): > > > > I mean no offense to deaf people, but it seems odd to me that you would not consider deafness to be a hindrance to musical ability. > > I’m not surprised that is sees odd, but I assure you, it’s not an insurmountable obstacle. Obviously not. For instance, a famous classical composer, Ludwig von Beethoven, composed after going deaf. Clearly, then, it’s not an insurmountable obstacle. Nevertheless, the little factual evidence cited thus far suggests that it certainly is a _hindrance_, which is what Contrapuntal suggested. No one but you brought up “insurmountable obstacles”. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 12:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/37 "2006-08-11T00:47:49Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Nevertheless, the little factual evidence cited thus far suggests that it certainly is a _hindrance_, which is what Contrapuntal suggested. No one but you brought up “insurmountable obstacles”. I really don’t want to seem like I’m crucifying **Tuckerfan** , who I’m sure regrets ever looking at this thread, but > [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Beethoven is believed to have perfect pitch, since it’s thought that’s **the only way he could have composed** after he went deaf seemed to describe deafness as an insurmountable obstacle, except for a gifted few. ---
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 1:40am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/38 "2006-08-11T01:40:38Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > seemed to describe deafness as an insurmountable obstacle, except for a gifted few. Insurmountable, except by those who surmount it? Have you been drinking? Because your logic here is, well, not a sort I’m familiar with. If you’re honestly trying to suggest that composing music isn’t something that’s extremely rare for deaf people, I’d like you to bring some evidence. As it is, you might as well get enraged if I don’t ask Stephen Hawking for advice on cycling. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 1:48am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/39 "2006-08-11T01:48:39Z")
> [@Excalibre](#): > > Insurmountable, except by those who surmount it? The definition of ‘exception’ must really bug you. > [@](#): > > If you’re honestly trying to suggest that composing music isn’t something that’s extremely rare for deaf people, I’d like you to bring some evidence It’s extremely rare for deaf people, and extremely rare for hearing people. It’s quite likely that circumstances prevent deaf people from having the same opportunities as hearing people, in the same way as my comment about female composers, which got overlooked. ---
**Author:** ![Chronos](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/chronos/32/134_2.png) [@Chronos](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Chronos)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 2:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/40 "2006-08-11T02:24:29Z")
> [@](#): > > He could have written a series of harmonies which obeyed all the right rules and systems. But that’s not all it takes to write good music - that involves a whole different, far less tangible, level of creativity. Certainly, which is why I pointed out that I’m far below Beethoven. But is the “less tangible level of creativity” required particularly connected to the ability to hear, directly or mentally? There are plenty of hearing folks who can use the rules and systems to mechanically produce harmonies, but few of them reach the level of ol’ Ludwig, either. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121.md?page=3)