# Theories about Beethoven possibly being.. **URL:** \ **Category:** Factual Questions\ **Created:** [August 10, 2006, 4:42am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121 "2006-08-10T04:42:26Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 15\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![Excalibre](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/898d66/32.png) [@Excalibre](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Excalibre)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 3:36am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/41 "2006-08-11T03:36:58Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > The definition of ‘exception’ must really bug you. So let’s see. Someone pointed out that it’s pretty logical to imagine that being deaf is a hindrance to composing music. You actually refused to answer that, but instead declared that it’s not an “insurmountable obstacle”, which is obviously the case, since a couple people have surmounted that obstacle. I can’t even figure out what you’ve been trying to say since then. But it seems like you’re going to an awful lot of trouble here trying not to admit that being deaf hinders one’s ability to compose music. > [@GorillaMan](#): > > It’s extremely rare for deaf people, and extremely rare for hearing people. It’s quite likely that circumstances prevent deaf people from having the same opportunities as hearing people, in the same way as my comment about female composers, which got overlooked. Yes. Systematic bias against the deaf could be responsible for their underrepresentation amongst composers. However, we don’t need this highly speculative explanation, since we already have a much more obvious one - that being deaf makes it more difficult to compose music. You seem to be incensed by that idea, for some reason, but the fact that you’ve proposed one alternate explanation isn’t even evidence against the obvious answer - that deaf people have a hard time composing music. Much less is it any kind of proof. ---
**Author:** ![Tuckerfan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/eada6e/32.png) [@Tuckerfan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Tuckerfan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:28am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/42 "2006-08-11T07:28:26Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > I really don’t want to seem like I’m crucifying **Tuckerfan** , who I’m sure regrets ever looking at this thread, but Actually, it reminded me that one of my cousins is nearly deaf. I just think of her as " cousin Debbie" and not my deaf cousin (or nearly deaf, she had profound hearing loss at an early age and had to wear massive hearing aids, and even then she still had difficulty hearing things, I haven’t seen her in a couple of years, but IIRC she’s since gotten a cochular implant. Her hearing problems certainly haven’t seemed to slow her down in life.) so it took awhile for it to percolate through my brain that I’ve known deaf people. > [@](#): > > seemed to describe deafness as an insurmountable obstacle, except for a gifted few. I was a musician in high school, and I can well imagine someone who was deaf from birth being able to play a percussion instrument quite well (I think that there may even be a famous deaf drummer), but memory is a fickle thing, and being a composer is difficult for even those who are able to hear. Beethoven could potentially have gotten around his handicap without having perfect pitch, but it would have been damned difficult, especially in an era when there was no mechanical means of reproducing sound. An “A” on a piano sounds very different than an “A” on a trumpet, and to get everything to work well together going by vibration alone, would mean that while he was going deaf, he’d have to consciously compare the vibrations he could feel with what he could hear (and his memory of what he should be hearing). Not an easy task by any means. Personally, I don’t think of Beethoven as “that deaf guy” I think of him as the guy who kicks Mozart’s (aka the Barry Mannilow of classical music) ass with just a couple of notes. ---
**Author:** ![Mangetout](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mangetout/32/19_2.png) [@Mangetout](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Mangetout)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:35am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/43 "2006-08-11T07:35:29Z")
> [@rivulus](#): > > [This](http://www.aproposmozart.com/Konrad%20-%20Moz's%20Composing%20rev%20Index.pdf) brief synopsis of a longer study (warning: PDF) casts doubt on this commonly held belief about Mozart. In any case, the large number of extant sketches certainly suggest that Mozart was not composing in any manner like a savant, but working out ideas in a methodical, rational way. This actually formed part of McConnell’s pro-tourettes argument; that Mozart’s composition was methodical to the point of abnormal obsession. ---
**Author:** ![mr.jp](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/48db29/32.png) [@mr.jp](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mr.jp)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 8:07am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/44 "2006-08-11T08:07:56Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Nope, you missed the point here, however. Why are female composers, throughout history, the exception? Either because women can’t write music (try defending that one), or situations and circumstances prevent them from doing so, and also from developing the necessary skills. > > “Women in general can’t write music, and therefore there aren’t many female composers” is a preposterous statement. I hope we can agree on this, despite also agreeing that female composers are in a minority. Well that is obviously due to the structure of society back then. But just to pick up the bait, who says that women are not worse composers? To be a composer you will need to have an extraordinarily good musical ability. And men tend to fill out the more extreme ends of the spectrum, in many different areas. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 8:47am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/45 "2006-08-11T08:47:30Z")
> [@Tuckerfan](#): > > Hey, it ain’t my theory, but it does make _some_ sense. Memories fade after time, and musical composition is a sophisticated activity, one where being merely close to recalling what a note sounds like could cause problems. That doesn’t mean that he had to have perfect pitch. If his training as a composer was exceptionally good (highly likely in any case), and he spent a great deal of his time before he went deaf, composing and listening to music (again, highly likely), then it’s entirely possible he could have managed without perfect pitch. I don’t know very much about his life, so I can’t say for certain how likely it may have been. I don’t think people have to have perfect pitch or recollection of how a given pitch sounds to compose music whether they have gone deaf or not. I think it is knowlege of the relationships between notes (or intervals) that is important for composing. Let’s say Beethoven never had perfect pitch. He could still write down series of notes and chords that would “work”. He may be imagining an “A” at 450 Hz instead of 440, but it would still work. Similarly if he did have perfect pitch but couldn’t remember what a particular note sounded like, he could still compose. On reviewing what I wrote it sounds confusing. I am not quite sure how to explain what I mean. I am not very gifted at music, but I think that if I went deaf I would still be able to “hear” how various melodies, intervals and chords sounded if read what they were. My knowlege of the precise pitch would surely slip over time, but the rest just feels natural–like mathematics-- to me. ---
**Author:** ![I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/i_love_me_vol.i/32/521_2.png) [@I\_Love\_Me\_Vol.I](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/I_Love_Me_Vol.I)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 8:58am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/46 "2006-08-11T08:58:33Z")
If I may add something: to me it seems clear that the ability to interpret, understand and create music is easier if you can hear. I think that to state differently is overly defensive and unecessarily PC. ---
**Author:** ![irishgirl](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/8edcca/32.png) [@irishgirl](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/irishgirl)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 9:15am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/47 "2006-08-11T09:15:10Z")
Michael Fitzgerald, Professor of Child and Adolescent Psychiatry at my alma mater certainly believes there is a link between exceptional creativity and Autism Spectrum Disorders. You may be interested in his books: [Autism and Creativity Is There a Link between Autism in Men and Exceptional Ability?](http://www.specialneeds.com/books.asp?id=22819) [The Genesis of Artistic Creativity Asperger’s Syndrome and the Arts](http://www.specialneeds.com/books.asp?id=14583) ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 9:20am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/48 "2006-08-11T09:20:03Z")
> [@Chronos](#): > > But is the “less tangible level of creativity” required particularly connected to the ability to hear, directly **or mentally?** A few people have _made the assumption_ that hearing loss is a major hindrance to composition. My assertion has been that for an already-competent composer, it need not be. Just a thought…what proportion of the general population suffers major hearing loss due to old age? Is there an equivalent proportion of composers who stop writing music at a corresponding point in their lives? ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 11:57am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/49 "2006-08-11T11:57:48Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > Oh, for goodness sake. I was bloody well explicit in saying that I wasn’t accusing **Tuckerfan** of being patronising, and that my criticism was of the third-hand suggestions being relayed. Can we drop it, unless it’s still relevant in some way? Apparently not. See here– “How do you have a bell curve if you can’t quantify something?!” What has **Tuckerfan** to do with this? You claimed that the phrase “musically inferior” was unquantifiable. I merely pointed out that it was your phrase, hence the onus was on you. Please, let’s leave **Tuckerfan** out of this. Just tell me what **you** meant when **you** said musically inferior. > [@](#): > > Nope, you missed the point here, however. Why are female composers, throughout history, the exception? Either because women can’t write music (try defending that one), or situations and circumstances prevent them from doing so, and also from developing the necessary skills. What is the ratio of female composers to deaf composers. Could it be that hearing might be an important skill in composing? Can you tell me what you think is a _necessary_ skill? > [@](#): > > “Women in general can’t write music, and therefore there aren’t many female composers” is a preposterous statement. I hope we can agree on this, despite also agreeing that female composers are in a minority. Therefore, the lack of deaf people making a living from music is not proof that deaf people are not capable of doing so. I never said incapable. I believe that they are much less likely to, because they are deaf. I suppose it would be possible to be a blind photographer as well. Just not very likely to be a very good one. > [@](#): > > From the evidence, no, or rather it’s not essential. And if ‘essential’ meant ‘important’ this would be a significant point. > [@](#): > > I cannot answer this. The only people who can are people who’ve suffered hearing loss. What about those deaf from birth? It would be a simple thing to test a deaf person’s ability to recognize pitch, timbre, volume, melody, harmony, etc. > [@](#): > > I’m not surprised that is sees odd, but I assure you, it’s not an insurmountable obstacle. As **Excalibre** has pointed out, so what? The only person to have used that term is you. You continue to try to place me in extreme positions that are not my own. Will you please stop > [@](#): > > A few people have made the assumption that hearing loss is a major hindrance to composition. My assertion has been that for an already-competent composer, it need not be. No, your assertion was that such an assumption was an insult to deaf people. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 12:06pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/50 "2006-08-11T12:06:02Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > Please, let’s leave **Tuckerfan** out of this. Just tell me what **you** meant when **you** said musically inferior. I meant the patronising, naive and ill-defined assumption implied by the anecdote which was relayed. > [@](#): > > And if ‘essential’ meant ‘important’ this would be a significant point. And if ‘blue’ meant ‘green’… > [@](#): > > What about those deaf from birth? How many times do I have to say the same thing - if we’re talking Beethoven, _who was not deaf from birth_, and other musicians in a similar situation, it’s a situation where an aural understanding and awareness has been developed before the onset of hearing loss. > [@](#): > > No, your assertion was that such an assumption was an insult to deaf people. Oh, alright, let me change it to an assertion that the assumption is insulting to musicians who have suffered hearing loss. Because I think it is - it suggests that they have lost all musical and aural awareness. ---
**Author:** ![Contrapuntal](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/e274bd/32.png) [@Contrapuntal](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Contrapuntal)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 12:12pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/51 "2006-08-11T12:12:32Z")
> [@GorillaMan](#): > > And if ‘blue’ meant ‘green’… I asked if it were important. You replied tha tit was not essential. It is you who are switching blue for green, not I. > [@](#): > > Oh, alright, let me change it to an assertion that the assumption is insulting to musicians who have suffered hearing loss. Because I think it is - it suggests that they have lost all musical and aural awareness. OK. ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 12:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/52 "2006-08-11T12:30:18Z")
> [@Contrapuntal](#): > > I asked if it were important. You replied tha tit was not essential. It is you who are switching blue for green, not I. You asked whether it was a prerequisite, and I responded to this. ---
**Author:** ![BJMoose](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/b/5fc32e/32.png) [@BJMoose](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/BJMoose)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 4:45pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/53 "2006-08-11T16:45:38Z")
The matter of Beethoven’s deafness is a nonstarter since, obviously, he had figured out music and compostion _long_ before he went deef. Any number of seasoned musicians can “hear” a piece while reading the score. I have some experience composing music. As with most pursuits, the more you do it, the better you get. But the really prolific composers operate at a level that I cannot imagine. (They have to in order to crank out so much stuff.) It seems clear to me that there is some “quirk” in their brain functioning that makes this possible. Consider J.S. Bach. Not only was he capable of improvising a six-voice fugue at the keyboard, he could look at a theme and immediately judge if was suitable for such treatment. G.F. Handel tossed of the oratorio _Messiah_ in, if I recall, three weeks. (Interesting, there is some indication he did so in an ecstatic state: it is said he said something like “Methinks I see Heaven opened up!” after finishing the chorus “Hallelujah”.) [Aside to **Tuckerfan** : loved your characterization of Mozart as “the Barry Mannilow of classical music”. In my public radio days I annoyed the heck out of the classical jocks by calling Mozart a hack. And, often, he was.] ---
**Author:** ![diggleblop](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/ac91a4/32.png) [@diggleblop](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/diggleblop)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 6:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/54 "2006-08-11T18:56:33Z")
Is perfect pitch a known “symptom” of autism? ---
**Author:** ![GorillaMan](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/g/50afbb/32.png) [@GorillaMan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/GorillaMan)\ **Post date:** [August 11, 2006, 7:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121/55 "2006-08-11T19:20:34Z")
> [@diggleblop](#): > > Is perfect pitch a known “symptom” of autism? There’s evidence to suggest it’s more common among people with autism, yes. But I can assure you that autism doesn’t guarantee somebody isn’t tone-deaf, either! As the jury in Nature vs. Nurture (Absolute Pitch) is still deliberating, it’s not possible to say if and how autism actually increases pitch cognition in some people. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/theories-about-beethoven-possibly-being/368121.md?page=2)