# There a special place in Hell for those who backstab their friends... **URL:** \ **Category:** The BBQ Pit\ **Created:** [October 12, 2006, 3:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207 "2006-10-12T15:28:09Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:36pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/21 "2006-10-12T17:36:53Z")
[QUOTE=Ethilrist] God help you when you get to the real world of real business. [/QUOTE] Not just business. This happened in a university class, right? In my opinion, folks in a scholarly setting should not let their friendships with one another prevent them from offering genuine differences of opinion or pointing out situations where they believe someone else to be in error. Virtually everyone in my university’s history department, both faculty and grad students, gets on with one another fine. The department luckily has very few tensions, and none of the overt hostility that i’ve heard of in some other places. But when we’re all together in the seminar room, everyone is willing to make their opinions known, and if it involves disagreeing with others, then so be it. I’ve seen some pretty lively disagreements between people who get on fine, and no-one takes it personally. Of course, it is possible, even in places where rigorous debate is encouraged, for people to step over the line. Some people have less tact than others, and have a seeming inability to disagree with others without sounding haughty and condescending. It’s possible your friend is one of those people. But if your main beef is that he disagreed with you in public, in a university class, you need to get over it. ---
**Author:** ![shizaru](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/9d8465/32.png) [@shizaru](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/shizaru)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/22 "2006-10-12T17:37:14Z")
Oops. I meant “I say that a lot”…damn MD 20/20… ---
**Author:** ![Alessan](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/alessan/32/465_2.png) [@Alessan](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Alessan)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:50pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/23 "2006-10-12T17:50:34Z")
So, **ExtraKun** … NOW do you know what ‘first mover advantage’ means? Because if you do, congratulations! You actually learned something! Which was the whole point of going to university in the first place! In other words, what **mhendo** said. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/24 "2006-10-12T17:53:03Z")
This is a university? It sounds like you are about 11 years old. So far as I am concerned your friend didn’t stab you in the back; he merely disputed your use of a term and the lecturer agreed with him. Nothing wrong with that. It’s perfectly legitimate, perhaps even demanded, in a scholarly setting. And your use of the word “wrongly” leads me to suspect that he might have been right. ---
**Author:** ![Ensign\_Edison](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/e/7ab992/32.png) [@Ensign\_Edison](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ensign_Edison)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 5:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/25 "2006-10-12T17:56:52Z")
The nerve of that guy, stabbing you in the back right in front of your face! ---
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 6:01pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/26 "2006-10-12T18:01:05Z")
[QUOTE=El Cid Viscoso] “Rue the day?” Who talks like that? [/QUOTE] The only way that phrase works is if it’s coming from the mouth of an angry black woman. ---
**Author:** ![Antinor01](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/ecae2f/32.png) [@Antinor01](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Antinor01)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 6:05pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/27 "2006-10-12T18:05:58Z")
[QUOTE=astro] The only way that phrase works is if it’s coming from the mouth of an angry black woman. [/QUOTE] It works well for Stewie Griffin too. “You will all rue this day! Go ahead, start rueing!” ---
**Author:** ![Caridwen](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/c/c89c15/32.png) [@Caridwen](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Caridwen)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 6:20pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/28 "2006-10-12T18:20:04Z")
It does stink the first time it happens to you especially if you’ve never experienced anyone doing this to you before. I suspect the older you get the more you’ll experience this type of thing unfortunately. > [@](#): > > This new guy joined my gang of friends at university this semster. For some reasons, he irked many of my buddies immediately, but me, always sympathetic to unpopular people (because I was one too), defended him and gave him the benefit of the doubt. I suspect your friends are a little more worldly and street smart than you are. Nothing wrong with being a nice guy but learn to trust your instincts about people. 9 times out of 10 your first instinct is the right one. ---
**Author:** ![CalMeacham](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/calmeacham/32/35_2.png) [@CalMeacham](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/CalMeacham)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 6:27pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/29 "2006-10-12T18:27:55Z")
> [@](#): > > Quote: > Originally Posted by Dumbguy > Real Genius > > Also Withnail in Withnail & I…, in the specific form (my favourite embittered expression): “Then the Fucker will Rue the Day” Not to mention **Young Frankenstein** Head of Police: “He will Rue the Dat that Ever was born a Frankenstein!” Everyone else: “What?” Head of Police:(repeating, more slowly and more clearly) “He will Rue the Dat that Ever was born a Frankenstein!” Everyone else: “Oh!” It’s a pretty common overly dramatic phrase. I’m sure it’s in a _lot_ more places. ---
**Author:** ![Li\_l\_Pluck](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/ee59a6/32.png) [@Li\_l\_Pluck](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Li_l_Pluck)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 6:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/30 "2006-10-12T18:41:54Z")
[QUOTE=astro] The only way that phrase works is if it’s coming from the mouth of an angry black woman. [/QUOTE] Son of a black woman here–and I was damn near breast-fed on those words! (And yeah, Mama, I’ll swear on pain of death that you generally attend to the sweet, Southern, country girl angel of your nature.) I’m not going to use that line about how you owe me a new keyboard ‘cause now it’s all sticky with vodka (Smirnoff’s Cranberry flavored, FYI), b/c I know that some Dopers ain’t diggin’ it right now, but…damn, that gets you points for being both unexpected and funny! 😛 ---
**Author:** ![rayh](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/e79b87/32.png) [@rayh](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/rayh)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 7:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/31 "2006-10-12T19:00:07Z")
[QUOTE=kaylasdad99] I notice that you appear to be posting from the year 2009. Would you be good enough to provide the winning numbers for the California State Lottery drawing dated 14/10/2006? You should be able to find them online. Please try to accomplish this some time today, and I’m sure I’ll be able to make it worth your while. 😉 [/QUOTE] Ooops, 103 then. This is what a degree in maths does for you. ---
**Author:** ![Little\_Nemo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/little_nemo/32/3120_2.png) [@Little\_Nemo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Little_Nemo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 8:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/32 "2006-10-12T20:23:02Z")
It appears I have to go against the consensus of this thread. ExtraKun, your “friend” was a jerk and obviously he wasn’t really your friend. Friends are supposed to support each other not tear each other down. You knew that; he didn’t. As for the idea so many people have that this is “normal” behavior, I’m amazed. I guess I’m lucky to work in an environment where people genuinely work together. ---
**Author:** ![ZipperJJ](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/zipperjj/32/211_2.png) [@ZipperJJ](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ZipperJJ)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 8:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/33 "2006-10-12T20:31:53Z")
mmmmmm brownie points… ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 8:37pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/34 "2006-10-12T20:37:30Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] As for the idea so many people have that this is “normal” behavior, I’m amazed. I guess I’m lucky to work in an environment where people genuinely work together. [/QUOTE] First of all, they aren’t working together. They’re on separate project teams. Second, this is an educational setting. A basic value of education is free exchange of ideas, which includes expressing disagreement, opinions, and criticisms. Third, it was a presentation to classmates, and the audience, apparently, was given the freedom to comment. Why, then, should they not? Fourth, these projects are academic exercises and the only real thing at stake is the opportunity for all involved to take advantage of opportunities to improve their knowledge and analytical skills. Don’t you see that expecting that people listening to your presentation will keep their criticisms to themselves actually results in your missing an opportunity to take advantage of the educational experience? ---
**Author:** ![Cheesesteak](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/cheesesteak/32/3694_2.png) [@Cheesesteak](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Cheesesteak)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 8:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/35 "2006-10-12T20:54:15Z")
First off, you need to go back to the lecturer with proof that you used the term correctly, if he’s assuming you didn’t. Second, if I want to have a good working relationship with someone, I’m not going to tank their presentation publicly unless there’s a damn important reason to do so. I don’t know if this topic was critical to the presentation or a side issue, but if this was trivia time, I would have kept my trap shut and maybe spoken about it privately afterwards. Even if you’re not working together today, you might be tomorrow. Third, if you’re going to assert that you are definitely correct, and the presentation is definitely wrong, you had better be absolutely sure your facts are straight. Assuming he was wrong, that would be bad news in a business environment, nobody appreciates a know-it-all who’s wrong. ---
**Author:** ![Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/h/8edcca/32.png) [@Helen\_s\_Eidolon](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Helen_s_Eidolon)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 8:57pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/36 "2006-10-12T20:57:17Z")
I, too, am surprised at the consensus. Sure, in academia, friendly debates and disagreements happen. This was not a case of a friendly disagreement. It was a case of a friend calling him WRONG on a graded assignment. Which, if you will note, he was not. So he didn’t learn the correct definition, he knew it already. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 9:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/37 "2006-10-12T21:04:21Z")
I don’t think that I can properly align myself on this issue until I see a definition, in your own words, of _first mover advantage_. ---
**Author:** ![The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/a87d85/32.png) [@The\_King\_of\_Soup](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/The_King_of_Soup)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 9:16pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/38 "2006-10-12T21:16:46Z")
Is it too late for you to switch to drama? I swear, this is how mad scientists get their start, only you’re not taking science. "Fools! Blind, dull-witted sheep! They laughed at me! They mocked me! They said I was misusing everyday business jargon, _twisting it_, to suit my own perverted ends! How little they know…I could be using the phrase ‘first-mover advantage’ _any way I want_ by now – as a greeting, an ethnic slur, to describe the romantic way the mist creates warm halos around the streetlights in the evening, even as a euphemism for ‘excessive sweatiness’ – were it not for those _meddling kids_! "I’ll show them. I’ll show them all! When my business plan is complete, and the venture capitalists of the world are begging to be my slaves, when the time is just right and I’m on the cover of Maclean’s, _then_ I shall unleash my army of pinstriped zombies with their spreadsheets of _doom_! MWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! “And for my “good friend,” the _traitor_, the _Judas_, who turned the mob against me…I shall have a special reward for him, one that will have him filling out requisition forms for the sweet release of death, in triplicate, _without any carbon paper or copying equipment_! But that must come later, after the module on marketing…” ---
**Author:** ![mhendo](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/mhendo/32/3159_2.png) [@mhendo](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/mhendo)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 9:18pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/39 "2006-10-12T21:18:16Z")
[QUOTE=Little Nemo] It appears I have to go against the consensus of this thread. ExtraKun, your “friend” was a jerk and obviously he wasn’t really your friend. Friends are supposed to support each other not tear each other down. You knew that; he didn’t. As for the idea so many people have that this is “normal” behavior, I’m amazed. I guess I’m lucky to work in an environment where people genuinely work together. [/QUOTE] If you consider people offering one another relevant scholarly and intellectual criticism in a university environment to be “tear[ing] each other down,” you are sadly mistaken. And such an exhange of ideas and opinions _is_, in fact, normal behaviour at any institution of learning worth its salt. Personally, i’m glad i work in an environment where people are able to disagree with one another and offer alternative interpretations without feeling like there’s some personal pissing contest or backstabbing involved. I’m not arguing that academia is perfect; far from it. There are plenty of egos and self-important assholes with tenure, and there are some academics who tend to be selfish and destructive, rather than generous and constructive, with their criticism. I was at a seminar a couple of years ago where one of the interlocutors described the paper that had been presented as having “all the dramatic impact of a wet noodle.” That sort of put-down was unnecessary; it was perfectly possible to offer advice and criticism without beiong a dickhead about it. Just out of interest, what should the OP’s friend had done in that situation? Should he have shut up and let the error (if it was an error) go uncorrected, just for the sake of the OP’s fragile ego? That would have been a disservice to the OP, and to the rest of the class. As for you, **ExtraKun** , apart from whining about it on this message board, you should have handled it in class. If your friend was wrong, as you assert, then you should have pointed out that he was wrong, and explained why your definition of “first mover advantage” was the correct one. You could have done this politely, while at the same time demonstrating to him, to the class, and to your professor, that you knew about your topic. **Cheesesteak** , i agree that the OP should make clear to the professor that he was right. Actually, i’m curious as to why the professor didn’t know that the OP’s friend was wrong in the first place. If this is a business course, then “first mover advantage” should be part of the lexicon of every student in the class, and the professor should certainly know what it means. I also concede that it’s possible that the OP’s friend did what he did just to make himself look good, and that his manner of criticism might have been inappropriate. But the idea that one should refrain from criticism or differences of opinion in these sorts of setting is just pointless and counterproductive, and it seemed that this was what got the OP so worked up, as he implies with his assertion that “The issue is not that you are right or not, though.” As far as i can tell, the OP would have thought his friend did the wrong thing, even if the friend’s definition of “first mover advantage” was correct. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [October 12, 2006, 9:19pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207/40 "2006-10-12T21:19:09Z")
[QUOTE=The King of Soup] Is it too late for you to switch to drama? I swear, this is how mad scientists get their start, only you’re not taking science. "Fools! Blind, dull-witted sheep! They laughed at me! They mocked me! They said I was misusing everyday business jargon, _twisting it_, to suit my own perverted ends! How little they know…I could be using the phrase ‘first-mover advantage’ _any way I want_ by now – as a greeting, an ethnic slur, to describe the romantic way the mist creates warm halos around the streetlights in the evening, even as a euphemism for ‘excessive sweatiness’ – were it not for those _meddling kids_! "I’ll show them. I’ll show them all! When my business plan is complete, and the venture capitalists of the world are begging to be my slaves, when the time is just right and I’m on the cover of Maclean’s, _then_ I shall unleash my army of pinstriped zombies with their spreadsheets of _doom_! MWA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA-HA!!! “And for my “good friend,” the _traitor_, the _Judas_, who turned the mob against me…I shall have a special reward for him, one that will have him filling out requisition forms for the sweet release of death, in triplicate, _without any carbon paper or copying equipment_! But that must come later, after the module on marketing…” [/QUOTE] You are my hero. [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-a-special-place-in-hell-for-those-who-backstab-their-friends/376207.md?page=3)