# There Are Better Ways To Count - An Easy Vocab Change to Help Our Kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996 "2019-11-26T02:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 2
**Author:** ![TriPolar](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/tripolar/32/3008_2.png) [@TriPolar](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/TriPolar)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/21 "2019-11-26T16:47:29Z")
First they came for our alphabet, now they come for the numbers. Musicians, your notes may be next. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 4:54pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/22 "2019-11-26T16:54:01Z")
> [@ASL\_v2.0](#): > > I’m already confused. Why is it > > oneteen > twoteen > > Instead of… > > oneTenOne > oneTenTwo > > …? > > Or at least… > > tenOne > tenTwo > > …? Exactly my thought. Why over haul the system yet not have consistency? I can see trying to standardize the language and eliminating the oddities of eleven and twelve plus the teens… but for 20 and above, what’s the point? Your basically substituting the suffix “-ten” for “-ty”. ---
**Author:** ![naita](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/naita/32/5862_2.png) [@naita](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/naita)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:11pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/23 "2019-11-26T17:11:06Z")
The article states that “In fact, one Western country actually overhauled its entire counting system within the last century, to make it easier to teach and do mathematics.” I’d like to know what country that was, and whether it was successful. If, of course, they’re not referring to Norway and misunderstood the motivation for our attempted reform. When phone numbers in Oslo were changed from 5 to 6 digits there were issues with people reading the three two digit numbers in what was then the only way to sound out numbers in Norwegian, e.g eight and forty, and dialing or writing them wrong, 84. So the national phone agency asked the government if maybe we could reform the system and the government and various national institutions were positive, so eight and forty became “forten-eight” in 1951. At least for people employed by the telephone company, in national broadcasting or teachers. I went to elementary school in the 80s, and the teachers would be consequent in their use of the new system, but I’m a mixer, as are most Norwegians still today, albeit with differences in age. And there’s also a difference in usage. The new way is more common when dealing with math and economics, the old way is more common for years, ages, weights and so on. So before reforming a language one should perhaps have a look at what effects it has on kids who end up having to handle two competing systems. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 5:22pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/24 "2019-11-26T17:22:08Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > [Learning numbers in a European language has probably affected your early maths ability](http://www.bbc.com/future/article/20191121-why-you-might-be-counting-in-the-wrong-language) > > For the sake of our children, the new 11 to 99: > > oneteen > twoteen > threeteen > fourteen > fiveteen > sixteen > seventeen > eightteen > nineteen > twoTen > twoTenOne > … > . You’re missing an important piece… 0 to 9 base. How do they express 10? “ten” or “oneten” and oneteen"? The language for the tens is possibly more confusing. For example, 20 (and upp) use the “twoTen” “threeten” “fourten"convention. Would English speaking children have difficulty differentiating between say “threeten” and threeteen”? There may be better ways to teach counting… but the article you linked doesn’t provide any. ---
**Author:** ![begbert2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/begbert2/32/3357_2.png) [@begbert2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/begbert2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/25 "2019-11-26T18:43:55Z")
I propose using the suffix ‘ty’ (pronounced ‘tee’) as shorthand for ten, except for the following special cases: 10-12: “ten”, “eleven”, “twelve” - base 12 is pretty common (it’s on clocks!), so keep special names for them. 13-19: rather than “tenty X”, use the formulation “Xteen” to save a syllable on such common numbers. “thirty” rather than “threety”, for pronunciation. “fifty” rather than “fivety”, for pronunciation. What do you all think? ---
**Author:** ![Thudlow\_Boink](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/thudlow_boink/32/320_2.png) [@Thudlow\_Boink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Thudlow_Boink)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 6:48pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/26 "2019-11-26T18:48:29Z")
> [@begbert2](#): > > I propose using the suffix ‘ty’ (pronounced ‘tee’) as shorthand for ten, except for the following special cases: > > 10-12: “ten”, “eleven”, “twelve” - base 12 is pretty common (it’s on clocks!), so keep special names for them. > > 13-19: rather than “tenty X”, use the formulation “Xteen” to save a syllable on such common numbers. > > “thirty” rather than “threety”, for pronunciation. > > “fifty” rather than “fivety”, for pronunciation. > > What do you all think? It’ll never catch on. ---
**Author:** ![Bear\_Nenno](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bear_nenno/32/3358_2.png) [@Bear\_Nenno](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bear_Nenno)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/27 "2019-11-26T20:04:23Z")
The top performing country in elementary math education is Singapore. The primary language used for instruction in Singaporean schools is . . . _English_. ---
**Author:** ![Bryan\_Ekers](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bryan_ekers/32/183_2.png) [@Bryan\_Ekers](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bryan_Ekers)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:32pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/28 "2019-11-26T20:32:01Z")
I remember a buddy of mine complaining about typing in numbers that were given to him over the phone, in French. Caller: _Quatre…_ Buddy types a 4. Caller: _-vingt…_ Buddy sighs, hits backspace, types an 8. Caller: _-treize._ Buddy sighs again, hits backspace, types 93. ---
**Author:** ![Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/left_hand_of_dorkness/32/7156_2.png) [@Left\_Hand\_of\_Dorkness](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Left_Hand_of_Dorkness)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 8:42pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/29 "2019-11-26T20:42:56Z")
> [@naita](#): > > The article states that “In fact, one Western country actually overhauled its entire counting system within the last century, to make it easier to teach and do mathematics.” I’d like to know what country that was, and whether it was successful. The article clarifies, later, that it’s Welsh. The experiments surrounding Welsh were pretty interesting. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 26, 2019, 11:34pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/30 "2019-11-26T23:34:26Z")
As a French person, you can take my four-twenty-sixteen from my cold, dead, _charcuterie_-gripping hands. IT JUST MAKES SENSE OKAY ? ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:06am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/31 "2019-11-27T00:06:27Z")
Before we start emulating Asian numbers, you should see how they do days of the month. [I’m pretty sure some sadistic oni designed it](https://www.learn-japanese-adventure.com/japanese-numbers-day-month-week.html). > [@USCDiver](#): > > Why can’t we use French where 95 translates to “four twenties and fifteen”. > > I mean what’s clearer than that? AND it helps with early addition and multiplication skills. France French. The Swiss and Belgian French speakers are more sensible in at least this case. ---
**Author:** ![Terminus\_Est](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/terminus_est/32/3087_2.png) [@Terminus\_Est](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Terminus_Est)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:49am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/32 "2019-11-27T00:49:54Z")
I’m sorry, why is 92 written in Mandarin as “nine ten Three”? That doesn’t strike me as being particularly logical at all. ---
**Author:** ![Kobal2](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kobal2/32/20_2.png) [@Kobal2](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kobal2)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:50am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/33 "2019-11-27T00:50:40Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > Before we start emulating Asian numbers, you should see how they do days of the month. In (mandarin) Chinese it’s as simple as “[day of the]week one”, “[day of the]week two” etc… Just as months are “month one”, “month two” etc… ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:54am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/34 "2019-11-27T00:54:53Z")
> [@Buck\_Godot](#): > > If you really have your heart set on forcing a cultural change for the betterment of education you could start with something (relatively) easy, like converting the US to metric. My OP does have a family resemblance to metrication. As such, it is perhaps less likely to be drifted towards in the U.S. than in other English-speaking nations. > [@DannyBeans](#): > > . . . . hundreds of years of linguistic drift made it into its own word. You can see it in every tens value to some extent or another. After switching to the new system, what’s to stop that from happening again? I hope nothing. Baring a post-human future, language change happens. > [@Sparky812](#): > > Would English speaking children have difficulty differentiating between say “threeten” and threeteen"? This sentence leaves out what may be the only original idea in the OP, that being the capitalization (13/threeteen vs. 30/threeTen). Not original? I didn’t bother Googling for prior art before writing the OP, but tonight I find [some as early as 1842](https://books.google.com/books?id=iJ_fAAAAMAAJ&pg=PA83&dq=%22twoteen%22&hl=en&newbks=1&newbks_redir=0&sa=X&ved=2ahUKEwiO7-znlYnmAhUMZd8KHWpeDpEQ6AEwBXoECAEQAg#v=onepage&q=%22twoteen%22&f=false). ---
**Author:** ![DannyBeans](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/dannybeans/32/38_2.png) [@DannyBeans](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DannyBeans)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 1:05am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/35 "2019-11-27T01:05:12Z")
> [@Thudlow\_Boink](#): > > I remember being taught somewhere that the “and” is not strictly correct. The correct way to say 223 in English is “two hundred twenty three.” The “and” is reserved for numbers with a fractional part, as in “five and two thirds.” > > Sorry, no cite. I thought I remembered a thread about this from several years ago, but I can’t find it. I could cite the math teacher who told me the same thing, but I doubt “Mr. Yoder in the fifth grade” carries much weight. ---
**Author:** ![Bayaker](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/bayaker/32/3454_2.png) [@Bayaker](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Bayaker)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:17pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/36 "2019-11-27T12:17:09Z")
The change should be done by government fiat on a Decadi in the month of Thermidor when everyone’s at the beach and won’t notice. ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 12:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/37 "2019-11-27T12:25:31Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > This sentence leaves out what may be the only original idea in the OP, that being the capitalization (13/threeteen vs. 30/threeTen). > . That makes no sense at all. How exactly would a speaker stress a capital T? Secondly, your link does not use any capitalization either. ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 2:44pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/38 "2019-11-27T14:44:00Z")
As a good nuke, I suppose I should not that I think this whole reform is anything but. 11 should be spoken as “One One” 12 should be spoken as “One Two” 13 should be spoken as “One Three” 40 … “Four Zero” 99 … “Nine Nine” 100 … “One hundred” (okay, that’s a loop, I’ll grant: we could settle on One Zero Zero, because…) 101 should be spoken as “One Zero One” You laugh, but it’s actually beaten into you going through the Navy’s nuclear power school and prototype training. You say “eleven” to a member of the staff (or even an especially devoted fellow student) at prototype training and they stop you in the middle of whatever you’re saying and rattle off “Spoken One One.” Example… Bob: I just caught an early bird showing of that new Rambo movie yesterday. It only cost five dollars! Bill: The local theater? I didn’t know they had morning showings. What time was it? Bob: Well, the movie started at eleven, but— Bill: Spoken one one. Bob: Well, the movie started at one one, but the first showing of anything started at one zero four five. Actually, it’s really cool. On a Sunday mornings they do a throwback classic. I’m thinking of going next week. Bill: Oh, cool. What’s showing? Bob: Two Thousand One a Space— Bill: Spoken Two Zero Zero One! _Bob cowers from fear_ And we all wear blue coveralls. And the inner party members get the best stuff, but it’s really not much better than an upper middle class lifestyle. The most senior members of the inner party, though, do often have a helicopter at their beck and call. ---
**Author:** ![Gatopescado](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/gatopescado/32/5711_2.png) [@Gatopescado](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Gatopescado)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 5:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/39 "2019-11-27T17:21:28Z")
What’s next? The Metric system? ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 6:53pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/40 "2019-11-27T18:53:40Z")
> [@Gatopescado](#): > > What’s next? The Metric system? When the clock strikes One Three, my friend, when the clock strikes One Three… [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996.md?page=1) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996.md?page=3)