# There Are Better Ways To Count - An Easy Vocab Change to Help Our Kids **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 26, 2019, 2:39am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996 "2019-11-26T02:39:19Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 3
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 7:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/41 "2019-11-27T19:09:37Z")
> [@Bayaker](#): > > The change should be done by government fiat on a Decadi in the month of Thermidor when everyone’s at the beach and won’t notice. The beach!? Have you seen what sand does to guillotine smoothness? ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 10:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/42 "2019-11-27T22:23:26Z")
> [@DannyBeans](#): > > I could cite the math teacher who told me the same thing, but I doubt “Mr. Yoder in the fifth grade” carries much weight. I learned the same. Although not really as a “there is one proper way to say numbers”, just as a way to be unambiguous when dictating numbers to someone. If you’re reading a number to someone and you pepper it with ands, then they can’t tell where the non-whole number part begins without listening to the entire thing (which could be of arbitrary length). So, just like saying “over” at the end of each sentence is the proper way to talk when on a non-duplex radio, saying “and” only once in a number to mark the decimal is the proper unambiguous way to talk when dictating numbers. As long as you’re not dictating large possibly fractional numbers to someone else, then it doesn’t really matter. ---
**Author:** ![Wallaby](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/w/dc4da7/32.png) [@Wallaby](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Wallaby)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 10:55pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/43 "2019-11-27T22:55:58Z")
Oh thank you! Thank you! I can’t tell you how long I have been struggling with our ludicrous counting system. It’s basically impossible to master without highly trained tutelage. I have suffered depression, anxiety and severe anger management issues over this. My life has been seriously affected up to now, and I can go forward happily into a new, more confident future. - Jimmy (age 4) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 11:40pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/44 "2019-11-27T23:40:10Z")
> [@Sparky812](#): > > Secondly, your link does not use any capitalization either. If you mean my link, in [#34](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21996022&postcount=34), from 1842, it’s a perfect example of the StraightDope parenthetical moto: “(IT’S TAKING LONGER THAN WE THOUGHT)” ---
**Author:** ![ASL\_v2.0](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/asl_v2.0/32/3525_2.png) [@ASL\_v2.0](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/ASL_v2.0)\ **Post date:** [November 27, 2019, 11:49pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/45 "2019-11-27T23:49:44Z")
> [@iamthewalrus\_3](#): > > I learned the same. Although not really as a “there is one proper way to say numbers”, just as a way to be unambiguous when dictating numbers to someone. In… I think it was third grade (or maybe it was first), we had an activity that involved counting aloud while filling a bowl with dried beans and flipping over a series of signs for each number (they were cards on rings attached to a miniature stand attached to the bowl, so you could flip zero through nine on two signs, with a third sign just for zero and one on the left). The point of the exercise was to learn how to count to one hundred. The idea was, when we had filled our bowl with one hundred dried beans and were confident in our abilities, we were to go to the teacher with our bowl and count out the beans, one to one hundred, in her presence while removing each individual bean in turn. I proudly went up to the teacher with _my_ bowl, counted all the way to ninety-nine without incident, and then drew out my final bean and announced, “A hundred!” Whereupon the teacher frowned and said, “No, ASL, the number is ‘one hundred,’ not ‘a hundred.’ Now go back to your desk and do it again, then come back when you can get it right.” I dutifully returned to my desk, with head hung low, flipped my sign back to show three zeroes, and put the first bean into the bowl. “One…” And thanks to that teachers firm stance against the bastardization and mispronunciation of numbers, I went on to get my bachelors degree in math. Standards. Discipline. Bullllll shit! 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Sparky812](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/eb9ed0/32.png) [@Sparky812](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Sparky812)\ **Post date:** [November 28, 2019, 7:21pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/46 "2019-11-28T19:21:29Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > If you mean my link, in [#34](https://boards.straightdope.com/sdmb/showpost.php?p=21996022&postcount=34), from 1842, it’s a perfect example of the StraightDope parenthetical moto: “(IT’S TAKING LONGER THAN WE THOUGHT)” The same could be said of the OP 😃 ---
**Author:** ![Ashtura](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/ashtura/32/2963_2.png) [@Ashtura](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Ashtura)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 2:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/47 "2019-11-29T14:02:40Z")
Counting to 100 against my Brazilian friends made me very happy with the English way. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 6:47pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/48 "2019-11-29T18:47:09Z")
Even sticking to English, is it more accurate to count “one Mississippi, two Mississippi”, or “one chimpanzee, two chimpanzee…”, or even “one second - two second - three second…”? Highly controversial! ---
**Author:** ![Kimera757](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/kimera757/32/3765_2.png) [@Kimera757](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Kimera757)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 7:58pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/49 "2019-11-29T19:58:37Z")
Canada is officially on the metric system. We use miles and kilometers fairly interchangeably (fortunately the math is pretty easy there). When we measure mass we use grams, but for heavier weights we sometimes use pounds, depending on the context (anything like lifting weights). If you weigh someone, you always give the answer in pounds, because the math is _just_ complicated enough that people don’t want to do the conversion from kg to pounds. Who even memorizes x0.453592 or x2.20462? Even multiplying by 2.2 is a PitA, even though the math is actually pretty easy. (We all know the 2 times table, after all.) There must be an explanation for this, and IMO that is the pace of change required. Children aren’t going to learn two ten four when their parents still say twenty-four. They’re not going to learn what 100 kg feels like when they’ve already been taught what 100 pounds feels like. This looks like a solution in search of a problem. I know I’m terrible at math, but that didn’t stop me from knowing what a million is, or the 12 times table. My real problem is I don’t have a “blackboard” in my head so I can confidently multiply by 2.2 without screwing up. (I can do that on paper no problem, of course.) I don’t think this would improve math marks or learning at all. ---
**Author:** ![Acsenray](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/acsenray/32/4519_2.png) [@Acsenray](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Acsenray)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 9:43pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/50 "2019-11-29T21:43:26Z")
Are kids having a problem learning how to count? ---
**Author:** ![Johanna](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/johanna/32/8318_2.png) [@Johanna](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Johanna)\ **Post date:** [November 29, 2019, 10:59pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/51 "2019-11-29T22:59:07Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > > [@](#): > > > > Here, 92 is written jiǔ shí èr, which translates as “nine ten Three”. But that’s just wrong. In Chinese _èr_ means ‘two’. Three is _san_. I know practically no Chinese at all and even I know that. (Thinking of the fiddle called “_er-hu_,” which has 2 strings.) ---
**Author:** ![PhillyGuy](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/p/ed655f/32.png) [@PhillyGuy](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/PhillyGuy)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 12:19am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/52 "2019-11-30T00:19:33Z")
> [@Kimera757](#): > > There must be an explanation for this, and IMO that is the pace of change required. Children aren’t going to learn two ten four when their parents still say twenty-four. Language changes. If we don’t destroy ourselves (and I doubt we will), there eventually will be parents saying twenty-four when their kids say something else. > [@Kimera757](#): > > This looks like a solution in search of a problem. > > I know I’m terrible at math, but that didn’t stop me from knowing what a million is, or the 12 times table. [The science linked](https://www.frontiersin.org/articles/10.3389/fpsyg.2015.00945/full) from the link in the OP doesn’t claim that a subtle language change would help with knowing what a million is. Nor did it claim that it would help with learning times tables. They did, however, claim a relationship to estimating ability. Whether that has a bit to do with your being “terrible at math,” I, of course, have no idea. This couldn’t be the the difference between becoming an acclaimed number theorist, and being terrible at math. But there could be a modest relationship. ---
**Author:** ![iamthewalrus\_3](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/i/258eb7/32.png) [@iamthewalrus\_3](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/iamthewalrus_3)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 6:46am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/53 "2019-11-30T06:46:30Z")
> [@PhillyGuy](#): > > Language changes. If we don’t destroy ourselves (and I doubt we will), there eventually will be parents saying twenty-four when their kids say something else. Totally, but language (English, anyway) generally evolves because the kids want a cooler way to say something, not because someone comes up with a grand and unifying simplification. I’d put money on a transformation like “twenty-four” -\> “two dozen” -\> “twozen” -\> “tzen” way before we get to “two ten four” I mean, as long as we’re simplifying, why not just recite the digits? People already sort of do that in some contexts, and leaving out unnecessary information is a natural way for language to evolve. You just stop saying the part that’s unnecessary and eventually only stodgy old people say that. ---
**Author:** ![crowmanyclouds](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/crowmanyclouds/32/19884_2.png) [@crowmanyclouds](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/crowmanyclouds)\ **Post date:** [November 30, 2019, 7:24am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/54 "2019-11-30T07:24:50Z")
^See also: vocabulary CMC fnord! ---
**Author:** ![Pleonast](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/pleonast/32/1183_2.png) [@Pleonast](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Pleonast)\ **Post date:** [December 2, 2019, 8:15pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/55 "2019-12-02T20:15:53Z")
In my bilingual home (English and Korean), we often say numbers in Korean simply for clarity. It’s easy to mishear “fifteen” and “fifty”, but hard to mistake “ship-o” and “o-ship” (literally ten-five and five-ten). Where things get interesting is telling time. If the clock says 7:45, I automatically say “quarter til eight”. And other colloquialisms like “ten past …”, “half past …”, “five til …”, etc. My kids understand me, but their friends think I’m weird. I’ve been asked the time, look at my phone which shows “15:47” and say “quarter til four”, they look at my phone and hear my words and were none the wiser. :o > [@Kimera757](#): > > I know I’m terrible at math, but that didn’t stop me from knowing what a million is, or the 12 times table. My real problem is I don’t have a “blackboard” in my head so I can confidently multiply by 2.2 without screwing up. (I can do that on paper no problem, of course.) I don’t think this would improve math marks or learning at all. I multiply by 2.2 in my head thus: double the number, then add ten percent. For example, 79 kg converts to 79 times 2 is 158 plus 16 is 174. ---
**Author:** ![DPRK](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/d/4491bb/32.png) [@DPRK](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/DPRK)\ **Post date:** [December 3, 2019, 4:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/56 "2019-12-03T04:26:33Z")
When I multiply, divide, or otherwise mentally manipulate multi-digit numbers, also by hand, of course I use base-10 and memorized information like the multiplication table, but I do not read the numbers out or otherwise translate them to a particular language. I propose that kids’ “feel” for such things has more to do with the amount of practice than with any effect due to their native language. One tangential observation on “four-and-twenty” versus “twenty-four”: if your native language is something like Arabic, your sense for whether the number is “backwards” may be reversed? Any personal experiences? ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 4:23pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/57 "2019-12-04T16:23:09Z")
> [@Mijin](#): > > Incidentally, another difference is that Mandarin cuts out the unnecessary “and” that languages like English and German include. > So English “Two hundred and twenty three” is just “Two hundred two ten three” The “and” is added by the speaker. IIRC the “correct” way to say a number is to only us “and” with a decimal or fractional part of a mixed number. ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 4, 2019, 8:41pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/58 "2019-12-04T20:41:37Z")
> [@Pleonast](#): > > I multiply by 2.2 in my head thus: double the number, then add ten percent. For example, 79 kg converts to 79 times 2 is 158 plus 16 is 174. The Fahrenheit/Celsius conversion is similar: F\>C is (F-32)_1.8; C\>F is (C_1.8)+32. 1.8 can be approximated by doubling the number then **subtracting** 10%. ---
**Author:** ![Saint\_Cad](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/saint_cad/32/18907_2.png) [@Saint\_Cad](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Saint_Cad)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 4:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/59 "2019-12-05T16:52:17Z")
> [@thelurkinghorror](#): > > The Fahrenheit/Celsius conversion is similar: F\>C is (F-32)_1.8; C\>F is (C_1.8)+32. 1.8 can be approximated by doubling the number then **subtracting** 10%. I always did the estimation as F-\>C: F-30 then halve (your F to C should have **divided by** 1.8; C-\> F: Double then add 30 ---
**Author:** ![thelurkinghorror](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/t/7c8e57/32.png) [@thelurkinghorror](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/thelurkinghorror)\ **Post date:** [December 5, 2019, 5:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996/60 "2019-12-05T17:04:44Z")
> [@Saint\_Cad](#): > > I always did the estimation as F-\>C: F-30 then halve (your F to C should have **divided by** 1.8; C-\> F: Double then add 30 You’re right, typo [Previous page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996.md?page=2) [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-are-better-ways-to-count-an-easy-vocab-change-to-help-our-kids/843996.md?page=4)