# There has never been an American army as violent and murderous as the one in Iraq **URL:** \ **Category:** Great Debates\ **Created:** [November 2, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903 "2006-11-02T22:52:38Z")\ **Posts on this page:** 20\ **Page:** 1
**Author:** ![astro](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/9dc877/32.png) [@astro](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/astro)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 10:52pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/1 "2006-11-02T22:52:38Z")
["There has never been an American army as violent and murderous as the one in Iraq”](http://www.mcgilldaily.com/view.php?aid=5450) This statement was made by Seymour Hersh. Seems a bit over the top, but I don’t know you measure the relative “violent murderousness” of an organization whose legitimate job description includes killing people and blowing stuff up, if necessary, to achieve a goal. Does he have a leg to stand on? > [@](#): > > He described one video in which American soldiers massacre a group of people playing soccer. > > “Three U.S. armed vehicles, eight soldiers in each, are driving through a village, passing candy out to kids,” he began. “Suddenly the first vehicle explodes, and there are soldiers screaming. Sixteen soldiers come out of the other vehicles, and they do what they’re told to do, which is look for running people.” > > “Never mind that the bomb was detonated by remote control,” Hersh continued. “[The soldiers] open up fire; [the] cameras show it was a soccer game.” > > “About ten minutes later, [the soldiers] begin dragging bodies together, and they drop weapons there. It was reported as 20 or 30 insurgents killed that day,” he said. > > If Americans knew the full extent of U.S. criminal conduct, they would receive returning Iraqi veterans as they did Vietnam veterans, Hersh said. > > “In Vietnam, our soldiers came back and they were reviled as baby killers, in shame and humiliation,” he said. “It isn’t happening now, but I will tell you – there has never been an [American] army as violent and murderous as our army has been in Iraq.” ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 10:56pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/2 "2006-11-02T22:56:18Z")
I think a certain Mongolian Khan might have to disagree. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:00pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/3 "2006-11-02T23:00:31Z")
What part of Nebraska was he from again? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/4 "2006-11-02T23:02:24Z")
I just love objective journalists. > [@](#): > > “The bad news,” investigative reporter Seymour Hersh told a Montreal audience last Wednesday, “is that there are 816 days left in the reign of King George II of America.” > > \ > > “In Washington, you can’t expect any rationality. I don’t know if he’s in Iraq because God told him to, because his father didn’t do it, or because it’s the next step in his 12-step Alcoholics Anonymous program,” he said. It’s unfortunate to see a respected journalist like Hersh sink to this type of behavior. And he’s still trying to peddle his (failed) forecasting about Iran: > [@](#): > > Throughout his talk Hersh remained pessimistic, predicting that the U.S. will initiate an attack against Iran… ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/5 "2006-11-02T23:02:28Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] I think a certain Mongolian Khan might have to disagree. [/QUOTE] Which American army was he in charge of? Without historical records, I can’t imagine any way to state with confidence that one incarnation of the army is more murderous than another. That said, what Hirsch describes is so grotesque that I’d be willing to forgive the possible overstatement. ---
**Author:** ![Revenant\_Threshold](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/r/f1d935/32.png) [@Revenant\_Threshold](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Revenant_Threshold)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:02pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/6 "2006-11-02T23:02:50Z")
[QUOTE=aclubs] I think a certain Mongolian Khan might have to disagree. [/QUOTE] Yes, the famous Mongolian-American Hordes. 😉 To be fair, even if he’s correct, it’s not as though he’s saying “all American soldiers are rapists, killers of the innocent” etc etc, but just that the current army as a whole is the worst in this regard when compared to the U.S. army at any other time. I’m just saying this to forestall any comments along the lines of “Other armies are worse!!” or “U.S. soldiers aren’t all bad!!”. Other than that, not knowing much about the conduct of the U.S. military in the past, I have no dog in this fight. ---
**Author:** ![Martin\_Hyde](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/47e85d/32.png) [@Martin\_Hyde](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Martin_Hyde)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:04pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/7 "2006-11-02T23:04:58Z")
[QUOTE=Marley23] Which American army was he in charge of? Without historical records, I can’t imagine any way to state with confidence that one incarnation of the army is more murderous than another. That said, what Hirsch describes is so grotesque that I’d be willing to forgive the possible overstatement. [/QUOTE] Are you willing to forgive the lack of any evidence he has to back up his depiction of the events? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:09pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/8 "2006-11-02T23:09:38Z")
To be serious, there’s no way to know if Hersh has legs or not from only his speech, because it’s his sole testimony. I guess if what he’s saying is truthful and widespread, then it might be accurate to describe the way American forces are prosecuting the war as “murderous”. Murder is unlawful killing, after all, and in war, the killing of an enemy combatant is not considered “unlawful”, while the wanton killing of non-combatants is. Thing is, if one can be defined as a “combatant” merely by their mode and/or direction of locomotion, I’m not sure where the line between lawful and unlawful can be drawn. Is that a legitimate way to determine who the enemy is? Seems fishy to me, but I’ve really no idea. ---
**Author:** ![jjimm](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/j/ba8739/32.png) [@jjimm](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/jjimm)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:13pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/9 "2006-11-02T23:13:49Z")
[QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Are you willing to forgive the lack of any evidence he has to back up his depiction of the events? [/QUOTE] Given the alleged lack of such evidence, then, may one conclude that what has been reported over the past three-or-so years is what is deemed “normal behaviour” for the US army? ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:14pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/10 "2006-11-02T23:14:57Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] It’s unfortunate to see a respected journalist like Hersh sink to this type of behavior. And he’s still trying to peddle his (failed) forecasting about Iran: [/QUOTE] Out of curiosity, has he made predictions in the past on the subject wich turned out to be faulty? I don’t see a timeline here, which seems to make his “prediction” seem to me not so much “failed” as hopelessly imprecise. Has he proposed specific timeframes which have come and gone without meeting his forecasts? ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:25pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/11 "2006-11-02T23:25:46Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] Out of curiosity, has he made predictions in the past on the subject wich turned out to be faulty? I don’t see a timeline here, which seems to make his “prediction” seem to me not so much “failed” as hopelessly imprecise. Has he proposed specific timeframes which have come and gone without meeting his forecasts? [/QUOTE] He weasels his way out of making a clear prediction, but it’s close enough for my money: > [@](#): > > [Journalist: U.S. planning for possible attack on](http://www.cnn.com/2005/ALLPOLITICS/01/16/hersh.iran/) > > Monday, January 17, 2005 > > “The planning for Iran is going ahead even though Iraq is a mess,” Hersh said. “I think they really think there’s a chance to do something in Iran, perhaps by summer, to get the intelligence on the sites.” > > He added, “The guys on the inside really want to do this.” > > \ > > And he said the preparation goes beyond contingency planning and includes detailed plans for air attacks: > > “The next step is Iran. It’s definitely there. They’re definitely planning … But they need the intelligence first.” Besides, all one need do is look at WWII and the deliberate targeting of civilians (Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagaski to name a few instances), and the quote in the OP is preposterous. ---
**Author:** ![Marley23](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/m/45deac/32.png) [@Marley23](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Marley23)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:28pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/12 "2006-11-02T23:28:36Z")
> [@Revenant Threshold](#): > > Yes, the famous Mongolian-American Hordes. 😉 As depicted in _The Conqueror_. [QUOTE=Martin Hyde] Are you willing to forgive the lack of any evidence he has to back up his depiction of the events? [/QUOTE] That’s why I worded my post the way I did, but I should have said it more clearly: if what he’s describing is accurate and it’s clear from the video that the soldiers run out and open fire on a soccer game, then it’s grotesque and I’d forgive the possible hyperbole. If he’s leaving things out or not accurately describing this video, then no. I doubt I’ll ever see the thing myself, so ultimately it’s hard to say. **Loopydude** , Hersh (spelled it wrong before) has been pretty specific about an American invasion of Iran. I think he first predicted in early 2005 that it was definitely going to happen by summer that year. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:29pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/13 "2006-11-02T23:29:07Z")
Yeah, but Dresden, Hiroshima, etc. were all attacked in the context of “total war”, in which it is purported, at least, that the civilian infrastructure has been so coopted by the military that it becomes a legitimate military target. It’s arguable that Vietnam and Iraq are different kinds of wars, and perhaps different standards for targeting civilians will therefore apply. ---
**Author:** ![Loopydude](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/l/e56c9b/32.png) [@Loopydude](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Loopydude)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:30pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/14 "2006-11-02T23:30:31Z")
Thanks also to **JM** and **Marley** for the background on Hersh. ---
**Author:** ![Miller](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/miller/32/481_2.png) [@Miller](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Miller)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:31pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/15 "2006-11-02T23:31:51Z")
[QUOTE=Loopydude] What part of Nebraska was he from again? [/QUOTE] _In Omaha did Kublai Khan, A stately pleasure dome decree…_ ---
**Author:** ![Squink](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/s/b5e925/32.png) [@Squink](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Squink)\ **Post date:** [November 2, 2006, 11:33pm UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/16 "2006-11-02T23:33:11Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] And he’s still trying to peddle his (failed) forecasting about Iran: [/QUOTE] Perhaps he reads the neocon literature: [Joshua Muravchik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Muravchik), wrote today about turning things around for his ilk; [Operation Comeback](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3602) > [@](#): > > **Prepare to Bomb Iran.** Make no mistake, President Bush will need to bomb Iran’s nuclear facilities before leaving office. It is all but inconceivable that Iran will accept any peaceful inducements to abandon its drive for the bomb. Its rulers are religio-ideological fanatics who will not trade what they believe is their birthright to great power status for a mess of pottage. Even if things in Iraq get better, a nuclear-armed Iran will negate any progress there. Nothing will embolden terrorists and jihadists more than a nuclear-armed Iran. Of course, then he goes all Crazy: > [@](#): > > **Recruit Joe Lieberman for 2008. Twice** in the last quarter-century we had the good fortune to see presidents elected who were sympathetic to our understanding of the world. In 2008, we will have a lot on the line. > … > Lieberman says he’s still a Democrat. But there is no place for him in that party. Like every one of us, he is a refugee. He’s already endured the rigors of running for the White House. In 2008, he deserves another chance—this time with a worthier running mate than Al Gore. Who could ever believe that Joe’s not a Democrat? 😉 ---
**Author:** ![Voyager](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/voyager/32/133_2.png) [@Voyager](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/Voyager)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:17am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/17 "2006-11-03T00:17:14Z")
[QUOTE=John Mace] He weasels his way out of making a clear prediction, but it’s close enough for my money: [/quote] I don’t recall an article about an invasion. In the article about the air strike, and in your quote, he is talking about preparations, and not predicting that a strike will happen. If you recall, he also reported that the military was dead set against a nuclear option. I heard him later, on Fresh Air, say that the military succeeded in getting that ruled out - possibly due to the article. Clearly something like this is not like an earthquake or the second coming where the reporting has no impact on the event. From the Fresh Air interview, I got the impression that no one was happier that the “prediction” (which I’ll need a better cite for) did not come true. > [@](#): > > Besides, all one need do is look at WWII and the deliberate targeting of civilians (Dresden, Hiroshima, and Nagaski to name a few instances), and the quote in the OP is preposterous. As mentioned, I don’t think these count. I’d suggest Sherman’s march or some of the massacres during the Indian Wars as better candidates. ---
**Author:** ![John\_Mace](https://sea3.discourse-cdn.com/straightdope/user_avatar/boards.straightdope.com/john_mace/32/185_2.png) [@John\_Mace](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/John_Mace)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:18am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/18 "2006-11-03T00:18:04Z")
[QUOTE=Squink] Perhaps he reads the neocon literature: [Joshua Muravchik](http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Joshua_Muravchik), wrote today about turning things around for his ilk; [Operation Comeback](http://www.foreignpolicy.com/story/cms.php?story_id=3602) Of course, then he goes all Crazy: Who could ever believe that Joe’s not a Democrat? 😉 [/QUOTE] I’m not sure if that whole post was tongue-in-cheek, but there is a world of difference between a pundit saying what he thinks we should do, and administration officials saying what we will do. Hersh was talking about the latter. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:26am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/19 "2006-11-03T00:26:15Z")
Okay, okay. My mistake. I misread the OP. ---
**Author:** ![aclubs](https://avatars.discourse-cdn.com/v4/letter/a/e68b1a/32.png) [@aclubs](https://boards.straightdope.com/u/aclubs)\ **Post date:** [November 3, 2006, 12:27am UTC](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903/20 "2006-11-03T00:27:37Z")
Then again, he could have been from Battle Creek, Nebraska. [Next page](https://boards.straightdope.com/t/there-has-never-been-an-american-army-as-violent-and-murderous-as-the-one-in-iraq/378903.md?page=2)